When James White was CEO of Jamba Juice, he intentionally transformed and diversified their corporate culture. In turn, the company’s market cap jumped 500 percent. He says this is not a coincidence. It’s a result of what he and his daughter, Krista White, call anti-racist leadership. James and Krista co-wrote the book Anti-Racist Leadership: How to Transform Corporate Culture in a Race-Conscious World, which they describe as “a practical field guide for CEOs and other leaders who are looking to transform their company culture to suit the needs of a new decade.
Transcript
Katelin: Welcome to All Hands, a podcast brought to you by Lattice, where people success is business success. I’m your host Katelin Holloway
When James White was CEO of Jamba Juice, he intentionally transformed their corporate culture – tripling the diversity of executive leadership – And, in turn, the company’s market cap jumped 500 percent.
He says this is not a coincidence. It’s a result of what he and his daughter, Krista White, call anti-racist leadership.
James:
"We actually believe the future of work is going to require anti-racist leadership. We view this as a, really, a core capability. And I think what we're gonna see moving forward,employees and consumers, make choices on that basis, on where they work or who they spend their money with."
Katelin: James and Krista co-wrote the book Anti-Racist Leadership: How to Transform Corporate Culture in a Race-Conscious World, which they describe as “a practical field guide for CEOs and other leaders who are looking to transform their company culture to suit the needs of a new decade.”
James and Krista, welcome to All Hands.
Krista: Thank you for having us.
James: Katelin, thank you for having us.
Katelin: Well, hello, you two. I cannot tell you how grateful I am to have you both on the show. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a very long time now. So, before we fully dive into things, would you each please briefly introduce yourselves to our audience? So, who you are, what you do, or anything else that you feel is important to your identity that you'd like to share. James, let's go ahead and start with you.
James: James White. Former chair and CEO of Jamba. Um. Been a 20-year board member at, uh, chair the, uh, board at the Honest Company. I sit on the board, Affirm. I'm executive chair at Air Protein, a startup, uh, working on transforming the future of meat. And I'm also author, with my lovely daughter, Krista, of the book Anti-Racist Leadership.
Katelin: Amazing. Krista?
Krista: Yeah. I- I'm Krista, I am, like Dad said, the co-author of Anti-Racist Leadership. I am a writer with a background in theater, I am the founder of Kiki for the Future, which is a startup, dedicated to queer sex ed.
Katelin: So, the title of your book is Anti-Racist Leadership: How to Transform Corporate Culture into a Race-Conscious World. I've read the book myself, it's a phenomenal, phenomenal handbook. This really is a step-by-step guide for CEOs, managers, and corporate leaders to dismantle racism within their corporations.
So, first things first. You are a father-daughter- daughter duo, which I love. Tell me a little bit why you decided to write this book together.
James: Three years ago or so, I happened to be doing a project with one of the boards that I sat on, where they had asked me to come in and help them, to really think about their change management as it related to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I happened to find a point in time where Krista had some extra time. She's a brilliant writer and researcher. And she joined me on that project. And we quickly found kind of a joint passion, a really unique way to think about the work. We ended up kind of post-that project, launching a company together, Culture Design Lab, and as we worked with more clients, we thought there would be a unique perspective to bring to the world, that of a CEO. There are not many CEOs that, uh, talk about this topic publicly. There are even fewer board members and board chairs that are passionate and bring, you know, expertise around this topic. And, uh, kind of force multiplier is Krista bringing a millennial, uh, viewpoint to the topic.
Katelin: A lot of this work that can be done, uh, and should be done, requires that multi-lens perspective or view when you're trying to, uh, use this as a change catalyst or change management, uh, practice within an organization.
Now, on this show we talk a lot about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in the workplace. And something that I love so much about this book is that it specifically talks about anti-racist leadership. So, Krista, can you tell us a little bit about why you all decided to write the book about anti-racism, not just DEI, but anti-racism in corporate culture?
Krista: Yeah, absolutely. We really believe that anti-racism can be foundational to all the work that people are trying to do now with diversity, equity, and inclusion. We mention in the book that there is a paradigm shift happening, and we would be able to just really change the way we think about, corporations' place in our culture by shifting to this anti-racist, point of view. Being explicitly anti-racist acknowledges this economic system that we, live in is based on racism. Acknowledging where we come from is really important in moving forward.
Katelin: It's so incredibly important to have that differentiation, not just in- in our language and how we're helping our leaders really understand how we should be building forward, but really understanding historically where we have been, so that we can address it and we can have these conversations that, frankly, we weren't having. To- to- to say the words anti-racist in the workplace even three years ago was not common.
James: W- woulda never happened before.
Katelin: Absolutely. James, what do you think made that shift or change?
James: I- I- I think the combination, uh, of the pandemic that we all continue to go through, uh, and the global racial reckoning kind of following,, specifically the- the- the murders of George Floyd, and the murder of Breonna Taylor and so many others r- really shifted the- the- the conversation. An- an interesting story, even as we think about the book, is our introduction to the book. And one of the things that we often do is read the introduction to the book and tell a little bit of a story. And if you don't mind, I'll do, uh, just a paragraph from the book.
Katelin: I would love that.
James: Krista, comes to me, around May, June, post the murder of George Floyd, and she says, "Dad, I've got a different way that we should start the book." And- and this was the paragraph she crafted that she shared with me.
"This book is not apolitical. This book is explicitly anti-racist, pro-Black, pro-LGBTQ, and feminist. This book takes the stance that Black lives matter, that LGBTQIA rights are human rights, that people of all abilities deserve respect and access, and that people of all genders have the right to sovereignty over their bodies and identities. This book acknowledges that capitalism is built on a foundation of systemic racism and that to have a truly diverse, equitable, and inclusive work environment, we must acknowledge the historic and present injustices faced by marginalized people."
And I thought it was brilliant, but shocking at the time. So, you can imagine-
Katelin: Right.
James: ... the point that you made, Katelin, that, uh, this is not the typical discussion that we would've been having, uh, just several years ago. I can remember reading this to one of the members of our team, and their comment is, "James, you're a mainstream business person. Um. Do you care if you ever work again?"
Katelin: (Laughs) Oh.
James: And I immediately said, "I- I really don't. This is a moment where we've got to call things what they are.”
"Uh. And we want to be a- a catalyst, you know, for this discussion and the right kind of change."
Katelin: Listening to you read that aloud, saying explicitly what you are and what you are not is very, very powerful.
I challenge our listeners and our audience to think about what you are and what you are not, as a culture, as an organization. It's helpful to articulate it, even if it is not, as you say, James, palatable, uh, necessarily. But to say that you are pro-Black, pro-LGBTQIA+, uh, those are powerful statements that can dramatically change and impact the way your culture is designed, formed, and evolves. Right?
James: Absolutely.
Katelin: You write in your book that change starts at the top, with the CEO. And I- I happen to hold the very same belief. But I would love to hear your perspective on this.James, I know you've had a fascinating career to date. You have been, at every stage of- of corporate, and built an incredibly beautiful career. But can we talk a little bit about your experience as the CEO of Jamba Juice for a minute? And more specifically, how did you initially set the tone for cultural transformation within that company?
James: The place we'd started and kind of the thesis that we've made around the book is that you can't, uh, delegate culture. And as we think about this work of anti racist leadership or DEI or inclusive leadership, that's work that the CEO, cannot, she cannot delegate, uh, that work to others, uh, in the enterprise, 'cause you never delegate the work of e- establishing the culture of your, uh, company. So that's the fundamental belief.
For me, as, CEO at Jamba, my role was to come in and transform, the- the company, um and culture is a place I always start a- as a leader kind of establishing, uh, the- the tone from a leadership, perspective, to make sure, that the cultural norms and values are established upfront, the things culturally that are non-negotiable are in place, and one of the things that we talk about in the book, you know, building a strong culture is really about looking at all the processes that touch people, you know, from hiring to onboarding to how you promote people to how, uh, uh, people get compensated. Those systems, you need to find ways to remove bias from those systems, uh, and be explicit about it.. And incentivize leaders to live up to both the values and, the critical policies that you, uh, lay out inside the company.
Katelin: I could not agree more. This particular moment in history that we are living through there- there is some similarities to back when you started at Jamba Juice. I believe that you started that job in- in 2008, right at the start of the- the Great Recession.. And your approach to DEI created a more resilient and financially successful business. That is- is undeniable. But my question here is, how do you think you were able to do this in such an uncertain time?
James: The work of leading humans, and I love, uh, the fact that you use that language as well, is so foundational to building a great company. For me that's always been the most critical lever,, in my leadership. And I know if I could establish the right tone, put an appropriate strategy in place, and really unlock the full potential of all the human beings, uh, inside the enterprise,, that we'd be able to,, turn around and transform, uh, the company. I started as CEO of Jamba in December of 2008, so the heart of the recession.
I'm leading a smoothie shop, for all practical purposes, that is national, and we're in it, we're headed into the winter. So you can imagine, -
Katelin: Yeah.
James: Great that I got the job, couldn't have been a more terrible time or environment-
... to have that job, but, I was really confident in a- a couple things. Just given my history of leading people and building organizations, that if we could put the right processes and systems to really, you know, focus the team and kind of unlock everyone's full potential, that we'd be able to transform the company. And we were able to do that over the course of my tenure there. The value of the company increased fivefold over that period of time and we had a lot of fun doing it.
Katelin: That's amazing. I- I've found a lot of new learnings that I didn't know about. better understanding the work that you did as CEO during such a challenging time, I think that those lessons are very translatable to kind of the current ecosystem. I encourage our listeners to- to go back and look a little bit more deeply at James' career, and specifically the impact that he had by changing, uh, the leadership team,, not just their- their perspectives, but bringing in new perspectives. I think that- that had a really big impact on your ultimate financial success there.
James: And I think it will continue into the future. I mean, one of the things that we believe, this work around anti-racist leadership, is going to be a capability, one of the things that, Krista talks about and, you know, really pushed me around was this whole idea of empathy.
Katelin: Mm-hmm.
James: We sit at a place, from a leadership perspective, where we've got next generations, uh, in the workforce that are gonna really require us to bring great empathy from a leadership perspective to understand where other people are coming from. Maybe different backgrounds, you know, into the workplace, choose to work virtually or in a hybrid environment, and we're just gonna need to be more thoughtful,, around the human beings that we're fortunate enough, uh, to lead.
Katelin: Krista, let's talk about empathy. This is, this is one of my most favorite tools in (laughs) the leadership toolkit. And thinking about your book I think there's a, there's a little nugget in there, or piece of wisdom, that I often share with founders in our own portfolio, which is, when you are starting this work, th- this really challenging, difficult, needy, fun, exciting, engaging work that you get to do in talking about cultural transformation, you talk about auditing the corporate culture. And this is where the conversation about empathy comes in. What are some of the ways, the really tactical ways, in which our listeners can effectively audit their cultures?
Krista: Right. So, you gotta start where you are. (Laughs).
Katelin: Yep.
Krista: It can be a very daunting process, because there's... you can see that there's so much work to do. But in auditing your culture, a few things you can do are, do things like surveys, to survey your, uh, your workforce.. There's tons of tools out there for workplace surveys that you use. And another thing that we talk about in the book is doing sort of formalized town halls or focus groups in order to really have conversations with folks, to gauge where they are. And also, digging into your data, your hiring data, promotions, retentions, and digging into that disaggregated data, as well. So often we have data that is looking at women and people of color, but you also need to look at women of color, for example-
Katelin: Right.
Krista: ... who might have different experiences in the workplace.
Katelin: Something that- that you talk about in your book are these listening sessions. Krista, can you talk a little bit about what a listening session might look like in practice, and- and where and how maybe empathy can then be built or developed in those listening sessions?
Krista: Sure. It can... Listening sessions can really look like a lot of things, depending on your organization and your needs, depending on the size of your organization. One example, uh, that we used in the book is, was a very simple exercise that Dad did at Jamba where he had a- a note card where he said, "This is what I would like James White to keep the same. This is what I would like to change." Um. So, that's just one example of something that you can really quickly gauge where people are. It can be anywhere from, uh, company-wide There's the smaller sessions that you might do, smaller, uh, sessions with, uh, certain teams.
That would involve, asking, like, focus group-type questions. Uh. But it's really going into it with a specific question in mind and, but also keeping it open-ended so that people can really share what they believe.
James: One of the things that is important in that process is for the leader to tell their own, uh, origin story- that you know, kind of transparent sharing, no matter where you're coming to the conversation from, it's always helpful to have others to share. We firmly believe that leaders should do more listening than talking.
Katelin: I think one of the keys to a- a great listening session is the listening part.
James: Yes.
Katelin: Oftentimes so many, uh, you know, people on culture teams or CEOs go in with the best of intent great intentions to want to listen to what's happening in their organization, but I- I- I think for a variety of reasons they want to show up with answers, or they want to show up with- with tangible things that they're going to do, but the reality is, is that's not the purpose of a listening session. The purpose of a listening session is to hear, to listen, to understand, to build empathy.
James: Absolutely. Some of the best examples that we share in the book are where, you know, CEOs admit what they don't know, uh, and actually tell- take themselves on a learning journey with the teams, in real-time.
Katelin: Right. That is one way that the CEO can set the tone for this dialogue and this process that you're- you're proposing, right? James, what are some other ways in which the CEO can help to set the tone for this type of work?
James: There are several things that we believe. One, I don't believe the work should ever be delegated, and it's really critical that this work of change in culture gets embedded in the strategy. So I think the CEO plays a role, she plays a role in, you know, making sure that this work shows up in the strategy, uh, and priorities for the company. I think there is a critical role to be played for this work to be embedded in the values of the company. For everyone, really, across the organization. But a couple of the most critical levers, uh, that we see is the middle management of the company, which is where most of us-
Katelin: Right.
James: ... experience the companies that we work for and really ensuring that the middle management of the organization, has the tools, the resources, the education-
... to really make sure they can bring the values to life operationally inside the company. And one of the mechanisms that we talk about in the book, that I've used across my career, is this idea of putting together action learning teams. So I've seen CEOs and actually myself pull together teams of 10 to 15 people brief them what the assignment is, if it was to change culture and impact a few people-related systems, we might bring in expert resources, we might use the cultural audit or audit of the company to inform, kind of foundationally, the work, and then we ask that group of people who typically work inside the company to really work on the system and have them come back and make, uh, a series of recommendations, if we would implement, you know, really drive the transformation and change inside the organization.
Katelin: This was something that stood out to me in- in the writing as something that you can pick up today and- and start doing within your own organization. Would you mind if we went a little bit deeper-
James: We- we'd love it.
Katelin: ... on the action learning teams? Awesome. Can you tell me how you select the employees to be on the action learning team?
James: We try to always intentionally make sure it's the most diverse team that we can possibly put together Cross-functional in nature. Coming, you know, from different backgrounds so we get the full benefit of the diversity of the organization. Um. And really, the magic is having people that work inside the system to be asked to do critical work, to work on the system, because they are actually the people that, know how, you know, their colleagues and themselves are experiencing the organization. You know, the idea is to have fantastic leaders inside the company, help the leadership team solve big problems, like, culture and change and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging-related topics. There's typically 30 to 90 days, is the assignment. It's kind of a focus brief.
We, uh, have always been surprised at the solutions that come back as a result. We show examples in the book where people use some of their employer resource groups or under-served-
... resource groups in the same way, uh, to solve big, big problems inside the organization or, uh, to make suggestions on how to change and transform the culture.
Katelin: So, my big takeaway from this part of the book was that you can use ALTs, action learning teams-
You can use an ALT for literally any problem-solving event that you have within your organization. You can expand this and use this tool beyond just these big, hairy, audacious, uh, actions and- and change management functions that we need around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. But you can also use them to impact your product. Things like, how do we bring a more diverse set of users to our product? How do we attract more customers from different backgrounds? So, this isn't just about internal work. You can, you can use this in a variety of settings. Is that right?
James: Absolutely. The other force-multiplying benefit, it- it's a way to actually accelerate the capabilities of the talent inside the organization. One of the other ways that I've used action learning teams, really, across my operating career is where you have high-potential people and you give them exposure to really important work. They have different kinds of access to the leadership team, and it really creates a positive momentum, uh, you know, from a career perspective, as well.
Katelin: I- I love that. Would you mind talking a little bit more about potential? How do we identify potential in our employees?
James: Yeah. One of the stories that I talk about in the book is, as a Black leader, never having been promoted based on, uh, potential,
One of the CEOs that I write about, uh, the CEO of Medallia, Leslie Stretch, and, I was with him, in, uh, 2020, was doing a town hall, and I made the comment that I'd never been promoted on potential and I could see him just rocking his chair, uh-
Katelin: Hmm.
James: ... in a little bit of surprise. You know, I've- I've obviously been very successful, but the point he ended up making is wow, I bet we have Blacks here at Medallia, that we haven't thought about their capabilities in the right way and we're probably under-leveraging, their full potential." He's got an interesting way that he talked about this. If we look at people based on potential we typically see potential through our own eyes, so you're gonna actually have a narrow lens-
... and we're gonna... most see potential in people that have backgrounds that are very similar to ours, which, in its own way-
... is gonna create a level of bias. My perspective on it was I watched colleagues throughout my career being promoted based on potential, and for me, I always had to prove it again, prove it again, prove it again.
Katelin: Right.
James: So those are two different ways for, I think, the audience to think about this topic. If we're gonna promote people based on potential, let's fully open up the lens and think about the potential-
... in lots of different ways that are just not from our own, uh, specific background.
Katelin: Thank you for explaining that a little bit more in-depth. I think that there is a very, very big difference between, uh, the tried and true, have points on the board, the proven track record folks, uh, versus the- the people who are viewed as high potential simply because of sameness. Now, Krista, I have a question for you about- about this work. So, you mentioned earlier that this work is- is hard and it is messy. I've also heard people talk about this work as, in this lens, through the ALT, as- as more glamor work meaning that it is high profile and high impact work. How would you describe this type of work, uh, that you are asking ALTs to do?
Krista: You know, within the context of transforming culture, uh, the work, it really depends on the organization.
But in an ideal world, where you're in an organization that is giving you the resources and tools that you need to truly transform the culture, where the CEO is, uh, fully onboard and leading from the top, uh, then it- it- it could be work that could be career-changing. So I think that's where the idea-
... of glamor work comes from, because if you are part of a team that is truly transforming the culture, and as we've seen, the more diverse cultures are more innovative, have a better bottom line, that is going to be something that could really shift the course of your career and your e- experience in the company, uh, could really change doing this work.I think I'd say both are true. (laughs) The work is not gonna be easy. It's gonna be uncomfortable. It feels very personal for a lot of folks. It has an incredible payoff.
Katelin: So, Krista, I- I want to take this, uh, from- from assembling this, these action learning teams, these ALTs, into the output. So, what comes from these learning journeys and bringing this group of folks together? I believe the output is the action plan, right? And so, action plans are a key part to anti-racist leadership. From your perspective, what are the cornerstones of a really, really good action plan? And who kind of works together to develop this?
Krista: So, an action plan in- in the context of developing it with your ALTs and CEO, senior leadership team as we state in the book, our perspective is that- that the CEO and senior leadership team always has to have full buy-in into, uh, cultural transformation. And so, that's one cornerstone of it. Another aspect, I'd say, is it needs to be specific and measurable. One thing we like to say is, if it matters you measure. You need to be able to measure... Some of these things are intangible, like, oh, does this workplace feel welcoming? (laughs)
Katelin: Right.
Krista: But there's plenty of things that you can measure in terms of representation of people by race or gender. For example, at different levels of the company. So, an example would be setting a goal, "Okay, we're going to double our representation of Black executives by this year, But I think that those are important things. Um. We get a lot of platitudes of, "We're gonna-"
"... do a better job." (laughs)
Katelin: Oh, yeah.
Krista: Committed to anti-racism. But a real action plan has sort of step by step, "Okay, how are you going to do that?". How are you going to make this workplace more inclusive, more welcoming, more diverse for all folks.
Katelin: That makes a lot of sense. And I know that you also propose a few kinds of creative strategies around accountability to these action plans.
James: Krista made the point in business every- everything that matters, you know, as you run a business you measure it, and if it matters, you find a way to incent and compensate people for it. And I think the- the main thing that we'd advocate is the- the middle management inside your organization needs to have the tools and the resources and the training but also the incentive system to really focus on what matters, uh, as it relates to people and culture inside the organization.
Katelin: I think that's really, really important. So, you have to measure what matters. I hear that loud and clear, and I believe that with my whole heart. You gotta put those numbers up on the scoreboard. Second, you need to incentivize people and align them around hitting those goals, uh, or targets or metrics or whatever those may be.
We talked about middle managers, which I think was really important for our audience to hear. We've talked about measuring and- and some of these really tactical ways to go ahead and- and start implementing the start to our journeys here. But I think that something I would love to make sure that we cover is that, a lot of folks get really hung up on seeing immediate results. This is long-haul work. This is not immediate, quick fix type work that we are doing here. We are really talking about long-term change within our organizations.
How can leaders level-set expectations and encourage everyone to be along for the long haul of creating the anti-racist corporations that we so desperately need?
James: I- I think the best companies, I've watched the leaders lay out a multi-year kind of plan, but with specific, you know, kind of goals within a year, whether they're education goals or ways that the composition of the organization will change over time. And, you know, one of the simple ways to start is just to educate and level-set the organization as a starting point. That's an easy way to kind of move into the work, where you change the language inside the organization you create space for more voices to be included in the organization. But the action plan is going to be specific to the individual organization. There's typically a multiple year, uh, journey, and as you build momentum, uh, and you, I always encourage people to start with things that you can build momentum around, and I think momentum builds on itself.
Katelin: Right.
James: You know, but I've got examples of a couple companies where the CEOs committed to this work two years ago. Uh. I sit on the board of two different companies. One is a lifestyle fitness company, Bay Club. The other one, Schnucks Supermarkets. The CEOs of those companies, uh, with me as a board member around this topic, I've spent an hour every month for the last two years with both of those CEOs, uh, including their chief people officers, the, uh, chief diversity officers at both companies and an operating executive that has been kind of appointed to participate in this work. And that's the kind of commitment that the work requires kind of over time to get it right. I mean, these might be, uh, the exceptions. The CEO at Schnucks Supermarkets meets with his, uh, the same diversity council that I meet with on a monthly basis. They convene on a weekly basis on this topic, to really underscore the importance of this work inside their organization.
Katelin: Mm-hmm. I- I think that's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing. Now, if we, if we were to take- take this work, this long-term work, and kind of flash-forward into what is hopefully our future here, this is a big, bold vision that we have to have anti-racist corporations workplaces that all can show up to every day, feel safe, feel heard, and feel like they're able to do their very best work. Krista, can you describe to us what that world might look like
If we were successful in our mission, what does the world of work look like?
Krista: I love this question, 'cause it's kind of fun to be able to dream big (laughs) about what we would like to see the world to be. That's- that's the work we're doing. I imagine a world of work where everyone, like you're saying, is able to bring them-... their full selves to work, where they don't feel like they have to mask themselves. Whether that's based on, uh, code switching, uh, based on their race, or, whether they feel they have to be closeted I would just like a world where people are able to just be themselves and are judged based on their potential and on the work that they do, rather than a narrow point of view of their background based on, you know, they went to the right school, for example. Um.
So, I- I would just like to see a broadening of what we look for in employees, and what we look for in promotions, succession planning, and, um... I would like to see, also, a focus on workers' rights across the board.
This goes back to, like, caring about the full person and that empathy piece of, when are we going to realize that humans, that other humans are people like us and deserve this full human dignity?
Katelin: Yeah.
Krista: You know, people don't need to be working these brutal hours and terrible conditions to make, to turn a profit.
Katelin: Right.
Krista: That's not the future that I envision, uh, for corporate America.
James: We actually believe the future of work is going to require anti-racist leadership. We view this as a, really, a core capability. And I think what we're gonna see moving forward, is you're gonna see employees and consumers, you know, make choices on that basis on where they work or who they spend, uh, their money with.
Katelin: I absolutely could not agree more. And I talk often about, how for many companies, they focus internally on their value set, but in this, in this world in which we live now, this generation of consumer, this generation of stock owners, and what we say has to match what we do. There cannot be a gap between those two things. It will be viewed as an integrity breach and people will talk with their money.
It needs to be a core capability. And- and what we say and what we do need to match. Otherwise, we will lose, uh, and our businesses will fail. Um. So, thank you for saying that, James.
Okay. This is the part where we get to move into rapid-fire. The name kind of speaks for itself, but I'm going to ask you a few questions that are somewhat non sequitur and hope that you can think of something very quickly.
James: Aloha pineapple, uh, at Jamba.
Katelin: (laughs) I love it. That's my favorite.
(laughs) Okay. Krista, I have one for you, before we get a little deeper. What song are you vibing to most right now?
Krista: Oh. About Damn Time by Lizzo. (laughs)
Katelin: (laughs) Nice.Strong up-vote. And appropriate. I am obsessed with the fact that you two both wrote this book together. It makes me so very happy. Um. I think perspective is important, but it also, uh, I can really tell that you two have a very special bond and a connection. And from what I've heard in our conversation, it sounds like this book has really brought you both closer. And so, Krista, I will ask you this. What's something you learned about your dad in the process?
Krista: I learned just how similar we are.
It reiterated for me how close we are and how important it is to me, uh, to have that relationship with my dad, 'cause a lot of people don't have that.
Katelin: It is true. You are very, very lucky.
What is one thing that you learned about Krista while you were writing the book together?
James: Just a, uh, r- really loved her beautiful kind of tenacity, uh, around the importance of this work. So we, you know, got a chance to, uh, really bond in different, in a, in ways different than we, uh, otherwise could have. It's been just beautiful.
Katelin: James and Krista, this has been nothing short of pure joy, and I will end by saying thank you so much very much for doing the work that you do out there in this wild and strange world. And please, please, please keep leading authentically.
James: Katelin, thank you for having us.
Krista: Thank you.
