Katelin Holloway, HOST: You're listening to All Hands, a podcast brought to you by Lattice, where people strategy is Business strategy. I'm your host, Katelin Holloway. This week on the podcast, we're talking to someone who is truly tapped into the work culture zeitgeist
Anne Helen Petersen, GUEST: Through layoffs, through retractions in the economy at large, the way to evidence that you were a better worker and not deserving to be laid off like the clearest signal was to work more hours.
Katelin Holloway: Anne Helen Petersen writes and talks about what workers are experiencing and feeling in the workplace. You may know her from her incredibly popular newsletter culture study, or her advice podcast work appropriate. She's also authored several books, and most recently one that is specifically focused on hybrid work called out of Office.
Anne Helen Petersen: An organization when you have significant layoffs, has gone through a trauma, right? It has gone through an organizational trauma. And anytime there's trauma, there needs to be time to process that trauma and there needs to be time to heal from that trauma. How do you as an organization address that without creating a scenario that is a Barnett factory? Right.
Katelin Holloway: Today I'm excited to learn from Anne her perspective on the state of the current workplace from burnout to overwork, culture, layoff brain, and so much more. Anne, welcome to all Hands.
Anne Helen Petersen: Thank you so much for having me. We
Katelin Holloway: Are ecstatic to have you on the show today. And so I, I have to admit I'm breaking the all hands mold just a little bit here. I'm typically interviewing CEOs, CPOs, D E I experts, but you or someone I have absolutely been dying to have on the podcast with that. Are you ready to dive in? Yeah,
Anne Helen Petersen: Yeah, let's do it. I feel intimidated. No, you know, I don't have an MBA and I don't have all of this training and experience, but I
Katelin Holloway: Even better, I
Anne Helen Petersen: Do, I think this is why sometimes people like my work is because I'm coming at it from a slightly different vantage, like trying to study workplace culture as culture. Yeah.
Katelin Holloway: And in fact, the more perspectives we can bring M B A or or otherwise is really important because we all are going to build our own unique cultures within our own workplaces that are exactly right for our organizations and our products. That was a perfect layup to my very first question, which is I'm really curious, what fascinates you about the workplace? Why is there such this rife territory to cover and what really made you fall in love with it?
Anne Helen Petersen: Great question. You know, sometimes people say that when they don't have an answer, but I actually think this is a very good question and something that I, I don't think I've been asked. Oftentimes people ask me, how did you get into thinking about workplace culture? You have a PhD in media studies, like you're a weirdo <laugh>. So I think there are two things going on. One is that there are a lot of things going on at workplace culture that are manifestations, amplifications of things that are going on societally, right? So whether that is struggling with ongoing issues of sexism, right? It's like very amplified in the workplace. Same thing with diversity, equity, inclusion. This is a societal struggle. And when you put it into the kind of like the microcosm of the workplace, like it becomes a lot more difficult to put principles or philosophies into practice when you're talking about work.The other thing that I think is really fascinating is that <laugh> change should be easier than it is. Yeah. Right? Workplaces are stubborn and I think one of the things that I really learned as I spent a lot of time looking at the history of workplace culture, how we got to the, our understanding of what workplace culture is today, is that historically changes have come with glacial slowness. The only way to think of it is, you know, one of those giant barges in the ocean, you know, how long it takes for it to turn around or even to make a left turn. That is how workplace culture changes, which is why I think the pandemic offered such an interesting force, right? The workplace culture of 2020 hit in iceberg and it forced it to change in ways that would've otherwise taken a decade.
Katelin Holloway: Absolutely. Absolutely. And something that fascinates me about your journey and how your voice has kind of been illuminated and, and brought into the HR or people and culture community specifically, is when I started my journey into the space, I also have a, a what I would call an untraditional background. You know, I also don't have an mba, and, but I also entered it with the, the understanding that we can be good and do good and still create those business returns that we need in order to continue to build the things that other people need, love and want. And so when I made the shift from, uh, back in the day, I, I worked at Pixar and I, and so I left Pixar and I got into the world of tech, and the word culture was reserved for National Geographic <laugh>.
Anne Helen Petersen: No, no, no, that's totally true. Culture is like another person's culture.
Katelin Holloway: Yes.Right? Yeah. And so I wanna start with a topic that you've talked about a lot. I know that it's very, very close to your heart, which is burnout. You wrote an article and then consequently turned it into an entire book on the subject. And I think that the notion here is that burnout isn't new, right? But I think we would both agree that it's evolving into something that we can no longer afford to ignore, both as as individuals and also as organizations. And so my first question on the topic of burnout is how do you think we can get great leaders to care more about finding solutions to the systemic issues that are burning people out instead of just covering them up and or just addressing the symptoms versus the cause?
Anne Helen Petersen: Yeah. Well I think it, it is pretty crucial to, of this not just as something that is a workplace problem, right? And something that is much more of a societal problem. Because you know, the World Health Organization, when they came out with their definition of burnout and their understanding that burnout is something that we should be talking about, they really narrowed it down to a workplace affliction. And I think that's really key because it's the World Health Organization and the way that they were thinking globally is we are talking about burnout that's really centered in experiences in the office. And I will tell you from my response to my article and to my book and where my book has been translated and where it has not been, right, where it has been incredibly successful and where it has not been all over the world, people can have these issues, this difficult relationship to work.But it is exacerbated and it is made much more difficult to treat, to recover from, to move away from when burnout is happening in the 360 of someone's life. Because burnout is oftentimes a reaction to a proper reaction to feelings of precarity, right? Feelings of insecurity, feelings that the bottom is gonna drop out at any moment. And there is no social safety net there to catch them. So where do you find the most acute experiences of burnout? Places where that social safety net is weakest? And I think America is one of those places, not just because we have weakened the social safety net on an institutional level in terms of things that we have in laws and policies, but also the incredible strain of individualism that undergirds the way that we understand how everything should work, right? Right. We are very, very competitive. We are very, very individualistic, and this is particularly true for people who have higher education levels and who work in specific industries and who are married to people with higher education levels and work in specific industries.We are more likely to move away from our existing infrastructure of care. So what you have is a lot of people who find themselves moving for jobs and then really isolated and then also terrified that they're gonna get laid off any minute. And then also wondering if like the entire economy is going to go to crap and then also have grown up in the shadow of the great recession, which is particularly true of millennials whose I think formative experiences of the economy we're really shaded by that. So to your question of what can leaders do, this is a hard one because I think it's pushing leaders to think beyond just what they can do inside the workplace, right? This is like, okay, I'm a big employer in my city, in my state, in my region, in my nation, I have a lot of power because at least right now, especially in the United States, businesses have a lot of political power, right?Where they are considered their money is considered political speech. So what are the policies that I want to push through that I want to advocate for that I wanna throw the weight of our institution behind? Yeah. In order to create that infrastructure that's not only better for my employees, it's better for everyone, but also great side effect, better for my employees, right? Reducing burnout in all of these different ways, that's so much harder to hear than just, oh, what if we have this like workplace activity <laugh>? Do you know what I mean? Dude, if you
Katelin Holloway: Had answered, and I knew you wouldn't, but if you had said somebody defective, like meeting free Wednesdays <laugh>, I would've been like, we're done here. Like, this conversation is not where I wanted it to go <laugh>,
Anne Helen Petersen: Right? Cause you can think about those micro solutions, but if you're not solving for the macro problem, it's always gonna be those band-aids, right? Instead of addressing the fundamental wound. Always.
Katelin Holloway: Yeah. Virtual candle making class is not going to help caregivers find relief, right? It's not going to help the sandwich generation with both caregiving with elders and children or adjust minimum wage or in all of these really big important things that, to your point, systemically are the bigger issues to address. It's not just that organizations in large companies have a lot of power and they either recognize it or they don't. How that translates for me, both as an investor and an executive and an employee, is we have an obligation, right? Employers have an obligation to step up and fill in those gaps where, where the government or other larger systems and institutions are failing to where, uh, I think the conversation needs to be,
Anne Helen Petersen: This is a struggle, right? Because I've seen organizations that are progressive-minded and are like, okay, we're gonna build that infrastructure for our employees, right? We are going to offer incredible benefits for elder caregiving. I've seen these policies, these are places that already offer pretty amazing benefits packages, but they're like, we're gonna offer, you know, incredible childcare subsidy, right? Or we're gonna even build childcare on the premises, which again, amazing, right? This is life changing. But for that cost <laugh>, right? If you're privatizing the solution and you're making it available to your employees and your employees only, it's usually at pretty great cost. Because when you solve still on that micro level, it's expensive. What if you and other business leaders thought about like, okay, what <laugh>, because this is just good business sense and I think it's hard to get on board with it, but it is really good business sense. What if we took a quarter of those profits that we are allocating towards these things, right? And instead paid them in taxes that then went towards that. So <laugh>
Katelin Holloway: On
Anne Helen Petersen: A national level that's trying to, I think, change some of the way that a lot of Americans in particular, but not exclusively think just about how business works. But it's worth just kind of putting that in, like planting that little brain seed and being like, well, you know, it might be cheaper to not privatize this problem <laugh>.
Katelin Holloway: Totally. And, and it's all done with the best of intent. And to your point, it might solve a very acute need or pain and even better position you from a recruiting standpoint, a retention standpoint. And so all of those things on paper sound great. And to your point, the fact that you're doing them means that you have, you know, a very, very strong value set. It means that you're listening to your team, you're very dialed in, and I love that you're pointing out like, Hey, hey, also let's, let's zoom out a little bit and think about the ROI of those dollars and our time spent. And if we linked arms, we probably could have a bigger impact with a smaller price tag <laugh> that that impacts more than just us.
Anne Helen Petersen: Well, and I think you can also approach it from a perspective of yes and right. So yes, we're going to try to cultivate these policies for our current workforce, and we are going to try to advocate to make these into public policy.
Katelin Holloway: Yep. Exactly. I'm gonna drag us out of the 30,000 foot view down to the individual view again and talk about something that is related but different. And that is the overwork culture, or as I like to call it, hustle porn. And this idea that that grinding will get you everywhere, right? And I think that different generations have adopted varying degrees of, of this overwork. Um, and, and this notion that you must work, work, work. My grandma used to, to tell me all the time, she, you know, oh, sorry grandma, I'm working late on this, or I've gotta do that. She would say, you know, Katie, you know what you get when you work your fingers to the bone, bony fingers, <laugh>.And it was like, okay, grandma, thank you. But it was, it was a very Kansas way of reminding me that like, why, why are we doing this? And, and what really is the result? And so in your writing, you call it overwork and more specifically you talk about how overwork impacts our leisure health, community, bonds, et cetera. And so with this, I have a two-part question. One, if you could please define overwork for our audience, because I think that this is a new term that that is important for them to learn. And then quickly following up with, do you think it's possible for individuals to bring more balance to everyday life without organized support within their organizations?
Anne Helen Petersen: Overwork, the way that we're talking about it is a strategy or a norm of working for people in salary jobs, right? So jobs where you are not paid by the hour, there aren't laws governing that you would be paid overtime if you work over the hour, right? But the understanding is that you work many hours <laugh>, right? Usually over 40. And oftentimes these are jobs that are office, what's sometimes called, I hate the term knowledge work cause every job demands knowledge, but office work, portable work, jobs that have higher degree levels, but it can be also things like teaching elementary school, teaching college. A lot of these jobs that incentivize overwork are jobs that have billable hours, right? Because that is a very clear metric of how successful you are within the organization. And the way that it has, I think, flourished is that when you don't, and these jobs have historically oftentimes resisted union protections because union protections would also put a limit on the number of hours that you can work to contract, right?And part of it, there's a lot of reasons for this, but part of it is that I think office workers often wanted to distinguish themselves from working class workers who needed the protection of a union. There's also the understanding that in these office jobs, you yourself want to excel. So you don't want to differentiate yourself from management because you want to be management, right? So there's all these reasons why these jobs have resisted the sort of protections that would put a limit on the number of hours that you could work for your health, right? And just for the general idea that like we are humans outside of work and we should put a cap on the number of hours that we work. The other thing I think is that over the course of the 1970s, eighties, nineties, and now various other fluctuations in the economy, through downsizing, through layoffs, through retractions in the economy at large, the way to evidence that you were a better worker and not deserving to be laid off like the clearest signal was to work more hours, right?More time button share. And that, I think has also translated now with more flexible work into, I answer emails quickly or the quickest. I'm always responsive to slack messages or teams messages. I am always checking my email even on p t o, like all times of night. You know, just that incredible availability. So even if you yourself don't think of, oh, I worked, you wouldn't say I work 20 hours a day. You are available 20 hours a day, if not 24 hours a day. Yeah. So overwork culture is that compulsion to put in as many hours as possible either through availability or through actual hours in the office. Sometimes it is the absolute standard in the office, right? It is how you cut your teeth in the office. And this is especially true, I think, in investment baking in big law, sometimes it is the way that you have internalized that you can distinguish yourself or in industries that are precarious, where there are fewer jobs and there are positions like say academia, it is the way that you kind of try to fight back against the odds that are set against you, right? It's just by working more. And that's where I learned my, my worst overwork habits was in academia. Other people I think have learned them in all sorts of different places. But the, the fundamental problem is that like you really can believe the gospel for a really long time, right? Because to some extent there will be periods when it works for you, right? Oh, <laugh>.
Katelin Holloway: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I I've been deeply rewarded for my overwork habits.
Anne Helen Petersen: Totally. But we were also part of the problem. We are the ones who are setting the standard that this is what good work looks like. Yeah,
Katelin Holloway: Absolutely.
Anne Helen Petersen: The way that I think about it now, you know, and this is like, oh, it's my individual choice how much I wanna work. It's not hurting anyone. But like I think of it now as like a form of scabbing, right? That I was the one who was like screwed up the, the labor norms for everyone else. Yes. And, and setting a different bar by which others are implicitly or explicitly, that's the standard, right? And this isn't fair to people for so many different reasons, right? Like, it's not fair for people who cannot work all the time either because of physical or mental limitations, or because they have caregiving responsibilities or because they're a normal person <laugh>. Right? Right.
Katelin Holloway: <laugh>. Right.
Anne Helen Petersen: Or because they're a person who actually has like friends and community and hobbies that they have continued to do. Right? All of that is impossible within the paradigm of overwork. And so, like my argument, I have to be so honest that it's taken me until my late thirties, it took me until my late thirties to see this so clearly, and it shouldn't, right? Like we shouldn't have to have every generation reach this point in their late thirties, early forties where they're like, oh, what is all this for? I woke up and I don't have any community. Who am I? Who do I like? Do I have anything else that I'm good at or that I even like to do other than work? Like, this shouldn't be a recurring scenario, but it's really hard, I think, to say to a younger generation, don't do what I did.Right? But I do think, and this is in some ways like a very broad generalization, I think that Gen Z is pushing back, and I think that part of the response on the part of millennials included is like, these gen Zers don't wanna work. Which not only have we heard that before about ourselves, about trying to draw appropriate boundaries, <laugh> or rejecting over work Ah-huh <affirmative>. But also how can we see that as a sign of hope instead of like a sign of, I don't know, like a decline in work ethic or something like that. You know what I mean?
Katelin Holloway: Oh my God, I I feel this in my bones. We're talking about millennials, you know, bucking the trends, right? And depending on what you wanna call me and my particular generation, I've heard geriatric millennial, which I think is rude, uh, but whatever,
Anne Helen Petersen: No, elder, elder, millennial, we are elder millennials, <laugh>, elder
Katelin Holloway: Millennials that
Anne Helen Petersen: Confers the appropriate amount of wisdom. Thank
Katelin Holloway: You. I like that much better, much better. <laugh>. I think that we're at this really unique moment in time where we have two bookends of generations. One saying, don't do what I did. Heed the warnings <laugh> and another generation that, that is below us saying, for the love of goodness, please get your foot off of that gas pedal. We have to link arms to do this together. And I, I think that there's a really beautiful moment for us to capitalize on both in managing ourselves as individuals, both in, in redefining what is appropriate and what are appropriate boundaries, and then simultaneously finding those coping mechanisms and treating ourselves and the burnout that we have established within our bodies and our relationships.
Anne Helen Petersen: One point here that I think is essential is to have compassion for yourself and your immediate reaction, which might not be quite fair, right? So when I see someone who's like, ah, I just, like, I, I'm saying no to that opportunity, or Oh, I just, I don't wanna work those many hours. I'm like, it's part of me that says like, oh, it must be nice, right? <laugh>,
Katelin Holloway: You
Anne Helen Petersen: Know, just like that incredible lack of, of grace. And then I wanna give myself a moment to step back and think about instead of judging that, right? And judging it by the standards that I came up through, trying to put myself back into that position and thinking, wow, what wisdom to be able to recognize that at that age and what a gift it would be for me to support them in drawing those lines. And there's a difference, right? Between being like, I don't wanna work under any circumstances. These, like, I have a very, very narrow understanding of like when and how I should work and understanding healthy boundaries. And so that's what I've been trying to do. And I, you know, I think I had a similar moment, like a revelatory moment a couple years ago when I realized that I kept like scoffing at the fact that my granddad who had a full 3M pension that he retired in, you know, I think age like 56. And I was like, oh, must have been nice for my granddad. I'm like, yeah, it was nice. He had a lot of time to spend with his grandkids and listened to twins baseball in the backyard. Like he lived another 30 years of his life without working, which is remarkable. And I think that you're seeing that discourse now. And I'm like, we have been overwork, pilled, like the idea that you should work until you die<laugh>. That that's not how it has to be.
Katelin Holloway: <laugh> really uncool guys. <laugh>. Yeah. Listen to your words.
Anne Helen Petersen: Like, it's cool to be able to have more of your life or like to stop work before your body totally breaks down, right? Like that's, that's great. And we should aspire to that as an advanced Nasha. Yes.
Katelin Holloway: I'm, I'm, I'm laughing, uh, so that I don't cry <laugh>, um, because it's so right on. It just is so right on and, and yet so hard to do. I want to shift the conversation layoffs and typically in a conversation around layoffs or the conversations that are happening around layoffs, you talked about it earlier. There's a, there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of worry about availability of other jobs. What happens if I get laid off? And so many of the conversations that are happening around this topic are really focused about the people who are being asked to leave. You know, what are resources? What can you do if you've been laid off? How do you avoid being someone who is laid off? But something that, that I've read in your work that I really appreciated is you've written about this term layoff brain and you are actually addressing the people who have stayed on, the people who were left behind to absorb all of the work that has no hands other than yours to do, but also have feelings. Lo and behold, they're humans that were left behind. And so the people who are impacted are not just the folks who've been shown the door with a pink slip, but also the folks who are left on the ground working. And so I would love for you to share with our audience more about this concept of the, the layoff brain and what kind of ripple effects that might have on organizations.
Anne Helen Petersen: Well, first I, since I know I'm speaking to people who are in these who are HR professionals, I have a lot of friends who are HR professionals and I know that it is difficult emotional work to, to let people go, right? You might also be letting people go in your own department. And I think that's something that doesn't often get talked about a lot. Yeah. But also just like that is, uh, that is a blow every conversation that you have with an employee where you have to let them know and absorb whatever their reaction is. That is a lot. And I think organizations should be mindful of that work there and give space in a place for, for conversation about that. And then the second thing I would say is that just a real awareness of just how vulnerable they're remaining. Like I think, I don't know if it's quite correct to say that there's survivors, right?But like, if you've been through something traumatic, an organization when you have significant layoffs has gone through a trauma, right? It has gone through an organizational trauma mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And anytime there's trauma, there needs to be time to process that trauma and there needs to be time to heal from that trauma. And so what does that look like a business level on an organizational level? How do you give space for people in departments to feel anger and fear? How do you like create a space to talk about that that doesn't just evolve into a real negativity spiral? That's really hard. But I do think that acknowledging that they're gonna talk about it anyway, right? And either it's gonna be in a space where you are providing some a little bit of structure for it, or it's gonna be back channeling <laugh>, it's gonna happen. So how can you try to figure out, and also I think show even just that acknowledgement that like, this is not something that our organization is going to get over over the course of a weekend.Cuz sometimes there's take the day if you need it, right? That's not enough. People have lost friends, they've lost managers, they've lost the, the structure, the guiding structure of their team in some situations or they've lost entire departments. I also think that, so that acknowledgement right there, just stuff like this space and time and then also thinking through about how you can be clear about workload in the time that follows. Because I think what immediately happens is that people are like, okay, well we're gonna absorb all of that work because we know that the company, the reason that they're doing the layoffs is because they want us to be more efficient, right? They want us to probably continue to do the same amount of work just with less people cost.
Katelin Holloway: Exactly.
Anne Helen Petersen: And how do you as an organization address that without creating a scenario that is like a burnout factory, right?
Katelin Holloway: Absolutely.
Anne Helen Petersen: I've watched so many people, so many teams devolve into these burnout situations after layoffs. So how do you protect against that? And that is a question that every single department and every single organization has to figure out for themselves after the fact to heal this. But like, just thinking about how things go down, right? Like, I have just seen incredible carelessness and it's usually not on the part of the HR professionals. Right.
Katelin Holloway: Cool. Cool, cool, cool. <laugh>, thanks. Thanks for that. I'll just sit on pins and needles over here. Don't worry. I appreciate you talking about this in the context of burnout. That's what we started our conversation with and bringing it back to that human experience and how so much of this can be avoided with exactly what you said, which is thoughtfulness. And so taking that time, taking that beat as a leadership team, listening to your HR teams, I know I'm preaching to our actual audience here, but you know, being very inclusive and thoughtful about leading up to that, to your point, this isn't a one day and done and then you take the beat and then you come back Monday and it's business as usual. It's not, it's almost like reon onboarding your entire organization come that next business day. And so that's the lesson here folks. So at the end of each of our podcasts, we do the rapid fire questions. Okay, first question. This is a layup completely unrelated to anything podcaster to podcaster. Who is your dream podcast guest?
Anne Helen Petersen: Uh, I mean, I would say probably Tressie McMillan Cotton, who is a sociologist, a a New York Times columnist who, someone whose work I've read for a very long time and whose work I just admire a ton. Love
Katelin Holloway: That. Love that. I, I'm also a huge fan. Okay, number two, I promise this one gets a little easier looking at the desk in front of you or around you, wherever you may be, what is one thing on that desk that brings you joy? <laugh>?
Anne Helen Petersen: So I podcast from my bed. I live in a tiny little yes <laugh> old fishing cottage on an island off the coast of Washington state. And the bedroom is like the best podcasting scenario. But, okay, so here's the thing. I see that I enjoy <laugh>, I see some of my dog's hair, which like, I let my dog hang out on the bed and some people are very, very against dogs on the bed, but you know what? It gives me so much joy to like just cuddle with my dog a little bit on the bed. So that's great.
Katelin Holloway: Yes. I love that. Well that just brought me joy. Okay, next question. We have danced around a lot of words in this, this conversation that would be considered workplace buzzword. What is the one trendy buzzword right now in regards to the workplace that you actually don't like at all?
Anne Helen Petersen: Oh, I hate so many different words. <laugh> related to the workplace, uh, because I think oftentimes they're offensive catchphrases to just like denigrate practices that are oftentimes just like boundary setting, right? So my least favorite is quiet, quitting, which is just, oh, a healthy attitude towards work. Doing the actual work that is described in my job description. <laugh> is somehow like a atory practice.
Katelin Holloway: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that one. Very much <laugh>, um, not a fan. Um, last question, and you can take half a beat on this one if you would like, when was the last time you were deeply proud of something you've accomplished?
Anne Helen Petersen: You know, I have this podcast called Work Appropriate that took a long time to develop and it's produced with Crook and Media, um, who do like Pod Save America and a bunch of other podcasts. And I was so nervous because it's just like, I don't like the sound of my own voice. Like I don't like listening to the sound of my own voice and I'm just really proud of the show. I think that it's done what we wanted to do and it's a show that I know both me and my producer Melody are really proud of. And so we're about 15 episodes in and I love where we're going with it. It just feels like we can do episodes forever
Katelin Holloway: And I think you should because it is absolutely fantastic and I am so proud of you as well. It is such a gift. It is such a gift to be able to share the voices so authentically as you do and your guests do. So Anne, thank you so much for spending the time with us today on All Hands.
Anne Helen Petersen: Thank you. This was a really wonderful conversation
Katelin Holloway: And to you Dear listeners, if you do not already follow Anne, today is the day you should start. You can subscribe to her newsletter culture study @ annehelenpetersen.com and be sure to check out her podcast Work Appropriate.Thank you so very much for joining me on this week's episode of All Hands. I'm your host, Katelin Holloway. Follow all hands wherever you get your podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you like the show, tell a friend abouts or give us a shout on social. This podcast is brought to you by Lattice. Learn more about how Lattice helps companies deliver great business results with smart people [email protected]. Find us on Twitter at Lattice hq. All Hands is produced by Lattice in partnership with pod people. Special thanks to our production team, Christine Swore, Annette Cardwell, Rachel King, Amy Machado, Hannah Patterson, Danielle Roth, David Wick, and Carter Wogan. I'll see you next time on All Hands. Until then, my friends, please keep leading authentically.