Applying an Intersectional Lens to Your DEIB Policy with Ruchika Tulshyan

KATELIN HOLLOWAY, HOST:

You're listening to All Hands, a podcast brought to you by Lattice, where people strategy is business strategy. I'm your host Katelin Holloway.

RUCHIKA TULSHYAN, GUEST:

Many times, the approach that us as culture, people, DEI professionals sometimes have taken to create a more inclusive environment has ended up leaving out, excluding or maybe even causing harm to people who are most marginalized in the workplace.

HOLLOWAY:

I genuinely believe that we all want our colleagues to bring their very best self to work, but far too often women of color hit ceilings in their professional career, navigate microaggressions, and experience exclusion.

TULSHYAN:

I think when we really dive into it, when you solve for those who are most marginalized, you really come up with systems that benefit all.

HOLLOWAY:

That's why, this week on All Hands, we're talking with Ruchika Tulshyan. She is the best-selling author of the book, "Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work." Additionally, she's the founder of Candour, an inclusion strategy practice, and has written some seriously epic inclusion pieces for top publications like Harvard Business Review and The Wall Street Journal... not to mention, she's a fan favorite and regular guest on one of my must-listen-to podcasts, Brené Brown's, "Dare to Lead," and as a matter-of-fact, that's exactly how I first came to learn about Ruchika's incredible work.

Today, she and I are gonna talk about a few different things including how to take an intersectional approach to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging policies, and what policies are mission-critical to transforming the workplace experience? Ruchika, oh my goodness, I cannot tell you how grateful I am to have you on the show with us today, welcome to All Hands.

TULSHYAN:

Thank you for having me on All Hands.

HOLLOWAY:

Well, my friend, you have penned this phenomenal book, "Inclusion on Purpose," and I need to know more about the woman on the back cover, and how this all came to be?

TULSHYAN:

That's a great question Katelin. I'm really passionate about, "Inclusion on Purpose," because I've seen what it's like to be in environments that aren't inclusive, where I- I and others around me, people I love, people who I, you know, looked up to, people who I wanted to bring along on, you know, various journeys I've been on have felt like they didn't belong, and I have personally also witnessed what it's like, what a transformation it is when organizations, and when leaders really understand and operationalize creating a more inclusive environment. I think, what I've learnt in all the time that I've been doing the work that I've been doing, is that people don't want to be jerks, especially people listening to this podcast.

Like, I know y'all care about other people. I know you believe in the, "Why," right, like I don't have to sit here and read through the business case for creating a more inclusive environment, you all already get it. I think the missing piece of the puzzle is the, "How?" The missing piece is those seemingly small interactions, seemingly small decisions, seemingly small, "I hired someone because I felt like, you know, they'd be a good friend to me," or, "I could go grab a beer with them," which has-

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... really, I know-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs), right.

TULSHYAN:

... and you're, and you're, and you're laughing, and I mean you- you get this, right, I'm preaching to the choir here, but-

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... "the beer test,"-

HOLLOWAY:

The beer test sucks.

TULSHYAN:

.. the beer test, and-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

... and those small, "I have good intentions," decisions, that have really big impact, which aren't always good, which usually aren't inclusive. So, my idea, or my belief with it, with, "Inclusion on Purpose," was, "If we take a more intentional approach, if we actually say the hard things," we say things like, "We aren't being inclusive unless we are being intentionally inclusive," right, "If left to our own devices w- we're gonna make decisions riddled with bias," let's actually begin the conversation there-

HOLLOWAY:

Right.

TULSHYAN:

... and say, "With this, with that information, with that acknowledgement that we wanna go far, but we aren't there yet," what are those intentional actions and awareness, and practices that we can put in place to create the type of inclusive environment of belonging that I know we all aspire to have?

HOLLOWAY:

Can you tell us a little bit more... just about you, your incredible, phenomenal background, because this- this book is not the start of your- your journey through this world of discovery, and- and all of the things that you've done, can you share a little bit more about your background?

TULSHYAN:

I think, the thing that I often, and always actually... not even often, but I'm really owning is that, "I'm an immigrant woman of color to the United States," and I am parenting... trying to be very thoughtful about parenting a six-year, a six-year-old boy, right, someone who currently identifies as a boy, and I think, that is something that is really important, because I think, that is central to all the work I do. I have a lot of provision, I talk a lot about it, I try to be very open about it... especially in the book, especially in the work that I do, and I have also experienced marginalization. So, the work that I try and do really coalesces, you know, both sides of the story.

A lot of what has guided me is, "I grew up in an environment where you were not allowed to make mistakes," right... culturally, I grew up in Asia, I grew up in Singapore. I grew up to immigrant parents, so I'm a child of immigrants, and now I'm- I am an immigrant to this country, but I grew up in a sort of environment which was very fixed mindset, you know, you either are talented or you're not. You're either good at, you know, math, or you're not, you know, you're either, you know, it w- it was very, it was very binary.

HOLLOWAY:

Right.

TULSHYAN:

There's a big theme that has come across my life, across my career... I would say, which is, "Proving that idea wrong," in many ways, but I think, at the core of it, like the Ruchika that, I think, is the one that I really hope most people get to meet is the one that has a really growth mindset towards things, and that means there are things I get wrong about, you know, DEI and culture, and community... I- I do too, and I like to learn in public.

HOLLOWAY:

We are all building out loud, and building in public helps us to be better, because we each come to the conversation with our own lived experiences, and it's really only when we bring those perspectives together, and we can share, "Hey, have you thought about this," it's, you know, i- it's almost a little improv, like to say, "Yes, and," as opposed to just saying, "This is right, this is wrong," because that's not actually the world in which we live, right?

TULSHYAN:

Not only that, but I actually think, we forget, or some of the... some of the research I've looked at, which honestly is where I get a lot of my energy from, and energy I mean in a, in a way where it like gives me the fire in my belly to make change is that for a lot of us we live lives where we don't meaningfully interact with people who are different than us. So, the, "Yes, and," approach becomes really, really, really important when you think about the- the fact that the average American will meaningfully interact with someone of a different race and ethnicity than them for the first time in the workplace... which is already really late, right?

The majority of Americans who are currently in the workforce would have largely only interacted with someone who has very similar ideas as them, right, and so the "Yes, and," becomes even more necessary, right? It becomes most important part of any conversation, to be able to say, like, "My view, my opinion, my approach and focus on the world is very much dictated by what I grew up with, and what I saw, and what I was shaped with," and there is... for sure, there are other ways of doing things, and other ways of living your life, and approaching leadership.

HOLLOWAY:

Yes, and, (laughs), let's talk about your perspective... I think that this is something that I loved so much about how you centered your book, and so in- in reading it, you really take that idea, that center of the experience of being a woman of color, and you wrote, "Without centering women of color's experiences when designing workplace inclusion policies, you're likely to miss important nuances that would benefit more employees." So, tell me why this intersectional approach is so important?

TULSHYAN:

How much time do you have Katelin, (laughs)?

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs), yeah, tell us, tell us everything?

TULSHYAN:

(laughs), okay. Okay, the TLDR version is, you know, the book was really born out of an article I wrote for Harvard Business Review, which basically said, "Do your diversity efforts center women of color," and- and I'm proud of it because what I really tried to argue, and what I tried to show through data is many times the approach that us as culture, people, DEI professionals sometimes... have taken to create a more inclusive environment has ended up leaving out, excluding, or maybe even causing harm to people who are most marginalized in the workplace, and I'll give you an example, right? So, I remember, like five years ago an organization I was working with was doing some deep work on, "Okay, we have pay equity issues, how about all the women get together in a room and they learn how to negotiate better," right?

But I mean, truly, an effort, an initiative, like lots of money, lots of time, lots of energy... that's what's gonna fix our pay equity issues, and look at us-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

... we're- we're doing the work.

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

(laughs), we're doing the work.

HOLLOWAY:

I know where this is, (laughs), going.

TULSHYAN:

We now know, we obviously know that it's a systemic issue... if they took an intersectional lens, which they did not, they would find that when women of color negotiate our salaries, it's not that we don't negotiate our salaries, it's not that we are less ambitious... in fact, most research, especially data points around Black women specifically are much more ambitious than white women, for example, right? And so, the challenge is when you face that... the intersectional bias, right, the bias of being a woman and a person of color, and a lot of the pushback that you experience when you negotiate your salary is far worse than when white women are taught to negotiate their salaries.

What would benefit more employees across the, you know, across various different demographics are the policies and practices, and the approach and the awareness of what's harming and what's challenging employees that are most marginalized in the workplace, and in-

HOLLOWAY:

Yes.

TULSHYAN:

... most cases, that is people who are women, or non-binary individuals who are also people of color, and then you kind of add additional layers of intersectionality, a trans woman of color, for example, or someone from a religious background that isn't, you know, being recognized or- or facing persecution, like i- I think when we really dive into it, when you solve for those who are most marginalized, you really come up with systems that benefit all.

HOLLOWAY:

I believe so strongly in this, it is the perfect starting place. W- we talk about policy a lot on this show... it's something that I'm very, very passionate about, and when we're thinking about those organizational behaviors, more specifically the DEI policies, and how we can identify and fix those structural inequalities, a- again, this is something I know you and I both care very, very deeply about, and more specifically pay transparency, and I- I think, that as we both know, as our audience knows, pay transparency is a mission-critical way to transform the workplace experience for women of color, and therefore everyone else.

TULSHYAN:

You're speaking my love language here.

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs). I mean, truly, but-

TULSHYAN:

(laughs).

HOLLOWAY:

... pay equity is like definitely my- my sweet spot. Now, in your book you- you actually talk about Adobe's commitment to pay transparency. I also have been a big fan of their work, and we're actually gonna spea- be speaking with their VP of Global Rewards later this season, but what are some of the hallmarks of that program just see- to have a real tangible example here, that you think made it so successful, from the DEI lens?

TULSHYAN:

Mm-hmm, mm, yeah, and I do, and I wanna be honest here, and- and really just also say that, you know, I'm not a, I'm not speaking on behalf of Adobe, but I think, what I saw when I interviewed their VP of Global Compensation Rewards, really what I found is at the core of it, and I was really surprised by this, was someone willing to say, "We're gonna have to do this, and it's really hard, and we're gonna make mistakes, and we just cannot afford to shy away from the difficult work," and I put that in in the book, right, and it was important for me to do that, because again, in- in a lot of leadership books out there, a lot of business books out there, it's like, "Do this, and everything will be fixed," right?

And I wanted to say that, "The hardest part about this is facing up to how difficult this work is," it's almost like the work never gets done. So I, e- I run a practice called, "Candour," and we've worked with an organization... on our recommendation, they ran a pay equity analysis, they were like, "We're... things are amazing," like, "Women are making as much as men," in fact there are some examples where, you know, women are making more than men, because we have a female CEO, all of this excitement, and then we had to come in and say, "We're really sorry to burst your bubble, but you need to take an intersectional lens to the data, so can you have a look at how people are getting paid by gender and race," and no surprise, there was a huge pay gap.

And so, I really think, if you wanna do this work well, know it's gonna be really hard... you have to take an intersectional approach to the data.

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah, i- it is so true, and I- I think, that it is really just truly, to your point, the starting place of talking about pay, equity over time, right?

TULSHYAN:

That's right.

HOLLOWAY:

There's prework, which is on the recruiting side, and ensuring that your recruiting practices are- are as fair and equitable, but then the- usually people go, "Great, check, did it." "Ah, excuse me, no, this is where we, now we get to really roll around in it," right?

TULSHYAN:

So important, many times we're very focused on apples to apples, like-

HOLLOWAY:

Yes.

TULSHYAN:

... "Is John, who is a software developer in this role making the same as Jane who is a software developer in a comparable role," and of course it's super important to get those apples to apples comparisons right, and ensure that people are being paid equally. What we forget is that there's the bigger gap is the opportunity gap, right, like, "Are John and Jane getting promoted at the same level?" McKinsey research shows women lose out on more than one million promotions compared to men.

HOLLOWAY:

Hmm.

TULSHYAN:

We have a huge, huge gap to fill when it comes to, "How often women, people of color, have access to those roles which help you build generational wealth," which allow you to invest back in your communities, which allow you to have leisure time, right? It's like, it's completely different, and I think, when organizations really wanna do this work, they would really do it well by looking at that opportunity gap, which again will- will yield probably data which will make you feel evening more uncomfortable, but that's where the real work begins.

HOLLOWAY:

I wanna underscore the idea that this is very hard work, and getting comfortable with the idea that this is hard work, for our- our listeners who are working with their safe suite to get some of these initiatives over the line, and really make that business case to say, "Hey, this is really important, and it's gonna be really hard," I think, that the next part of that sentence or statement is, "And it will be worth all of it, at the end of the day, this is a deep investment in our company's business success," right? And again, we don't need to preach to our audience, but not only is it hard, it will be deeply rewarding if you actually take it on in the right way?

TULSHYAN:

Totally, and actually one of my favorite examples that I really like to look at... even around the business case for diversity is the importance of how well-prepared people come to interactions which lead to innovation, when you know you're working with someone who is different than you, versus when you're not, right? There's a lot of group thing when you have homogenous teams, and one of my favorite examples is there was a study done where people were gonna have a meeting where they knew someone was of the opposite political affiliation than them, and they actually came to those meetings better prepared, because they knew that there would be that productive conflict, and it was productive conflict.

I know there's, you know, all sorts of other types of conflict-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

... that can happen, but for me it was very meaningful to find out that actually, you know, "Yes, indeed around gender. Yes, indeed around race. Yes, indeed around other forms of diversity." My point is that like when you know that you're gonna be around people who are different than you, you come to work better prepared, and like truly diverse and inclusive teams... to get there is hard work, again, left to our own devices, we're like, "Oh, we believe in diversity, e- equity and inclusion in theory, so it's just gonna happen." No, it's really like constant, consistent, hard work. The feedback loop it really necessary. The ability to adjust when things aren't working, try new things, be more open-minded to new interventions, I think, is really necessary.

HOLLOWAY:

I think, that's a really interesting point, and I wanna go a little bit more deeply here, if you don't mind, because something we do talk about... that is a part of the conversation generally is around creating a culture, and- and training our managers even more specifically to provide that psychological safety, right? It is their job to come to the table to say, "Hi, I'm creating this incredible space for you to show up and feel safe enough to create, you know, that healthy friction," can you talk a little bit more about a- a manager's role in creating that psychological safety in order to help better prepare their teams?

TULSHYAN:

Totally, when I think about psychological safety, and you know, squarely the work around the importance of creating an environment where people can safely fail, take risks, speak up, challenge the status quo respectfully, and the work by, you know, Dr. Amy Edmondson, who has been an amazing supporter for the book, and just someone whom I've learnt so much from in every interaction I've been lucky to have with Dr. Edmondson. I think, it's really important for managers to operationalize psychological safety is creating a culture where everyone has the ability to speak up, but also fail-

HOLLOWAY:

Yes.

TULSHYAN:

... and I think, that's something that isn't talked about enough when it comes to psychological safety, right? So, there is that like, "Can I speak up, can I ask the stupid question, can I ask the half-formed question," which again, disproportionately chosen, and even my own experiences show that it's people with the most privilege and power, both status and hierarchical, who are able to do that, but I think, another part of growth, and especially career growth is related to be able to make mistakes, is related to be able to fail.

So, when we talk about, "Psychological safety," the one that really stands out to me is, "Creating a culture where it is safe to fail," where a manager can- can sit around the table with their directs, or even in an All Hands," and say... a leader can say, "Hey, here's where things went really wrong. There's no blame and shame here, but here's where things went wrong," or if they wanna talk about a personal experience, it can be... or a personal thing that went wrong, you know, in terms of something they personally owned in the organization, that didn't work out, but I think, being able to be really clear about how failure shows up, and how to create an environment where people can safely fail, but not lose their job, not lost their status, not lose the respect, that is what true psychological safety looks like.

HOLLOWAY:

Absolutely. It's one thing to say, you know, "Failure is such an important part of our development, and failure is a super important part of our feedback loops, blah, blah, blah," and then, you know, usually if a company is quote, unquote, "Good at this," they'll reserve it for a postmortem, right, "Okay, we've done something, we've completed a project," and if you're great at these like, er, you know, retrospectives, you can look back and say, "Okay, what could've gone better," but, how do you actually take an idea like, "Failure is a critical part of development," and actually bring that to life in your organization? It's very cool...

TULSHYAN:

And I will... for anyone listening, I wanna double down on the fact that, "Psychological safety is incredible," being able to feel like your team has your back was the number one trade across the most innovative teams at Google, right, according to research they named, "Project Aristotle," and, let's not forget the, "Yes, and," the, "And," part that sticks with me is truly there're a lot of people who cannot afford to fail-

HOLLOWAY:

Yes.

TULSHYAN:

... right? And until we create inclusive equitable environments, until we say, "Hey, we're all biased, we all make mistakes, and people of color, women of color, women, people with other marginalized identities disproportionately get penalized for failure, do not get a second chance," I think, we need to realize, like there truly are different standards around failure and who we give a second chance to, and I don't wanna name any names, but you and I can probably-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

... think of a lot of people-

HOLLOWAY:

Oh yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... who failed very publicly, and were very publicly given second-

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... third, fifth, 10th, 15 chances, you know?

HOLLOWAY:

Oh yeah-

TULSHYAN:

So-

HOLLOWAY:

... failing up is a thing-

TULSHYAN:

... (laughs).

HOLLOWAY:

... it's real thing.

TULSHYAN:

But not everyone gets to do it.

HOLLOWAY:

But not for everyone.

TULSHYAN:

That's right.

HOLLOWAY:

Absolutely not.

TULSHYAN:

Yeah.

HOLLOWAY:

You know, er, before we leave the topic of feedback or feedback loops in- and failure, um, or- or more importantly, how to help retain employees through those, um, that growth and development chapter in their careers within an organization, I think, a piece of feedback that- that you mention in your book, and that- that we both have probably heard several times in our own careers, or- or, you know, just tangentially through our friends is this notion of quote, unquote, "Develop your executive presence," and just what absolute garbage that is, and just how absolutely not helpful that is.

First of all, I wanna get your hot T on that one, and then the- the real question here is, "How can we improve the feedback process to better develop our employees, and avoid empty feedback, like, "Develop your executive presence?"

TULSHYAN:

Mm, well, the TLDR is asking someone to develop their executive presence is sexist and racist, (laughs).

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs), that's like-

TULSHYAN:

Yep.

HOLLOWAY:

... the, tha-

TULSHYAN:

Full stop.

HOLLOWAY:

... that's a, that's it, "Full stop."

TULSHYAN:

Yeah, mic drop, and I wanna give a shout-out to my good friend Lisa Sun, who started a company, a clothing company, which she calls, "A confidence company," called, "Gravitas," because she was up to be promoted at a very well-known consulting firm... the world's most famous consulting firm, and basically a senior partner sat her down and said, "Lisa, you lack Gravitas," and so, she left the company and started an incredible clothing, fashion, confidence company called, "Gravitas," which goes from size zero to 24-

HOLLOWAY:

Nice.

TULSHYAN:

... and talk about being inclusive-

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... she has a new book coming out called, "Gravitas," and it really focuses on, "What the heck does Gravitas mean?"

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

What does it mean to be told, "You lack executive presence or Gravitas, or whatever- whatever the word is," like literally insert a fuzzy concept in there, "You lack leadership presence," and I think this is where feedback often really falls flat, and, you know, research shows women and women of color are less likely to get feedback that they can really use a- that is actionable, right? A lot of times its sort of like, "Oh, you're doing great," or, "Oh, you could improve," without really being very actionable around it, which men and white people are more likely to get feedback that they can actually use, and take some action from, and improve.

So, I think, I think, a big part of it is figuring out how to make sure that feedback... especially around growth is very actionable-

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... here's an example, right, I talk about the, "SVI framework," and then I also... in my book I add, "The importance of making sure you also affirm that your," you know, the employee or the person you're working with, that you're giving feedback to, is doing a good job, like, "Here's something that I think you're doing really well," and, "Here's where I think you can improve," and, "Here's a very specific example of it," because, "Here's the impact that it has," so I love the SVI framework for that.

Um, I think, without- without very actionable feedback, rather than words... descriptor words, like, "Executive presence," and, "Gravitas," and other ones like that-

HOLLOWAY:

Right.

TULSHYAN:

... and it really is bad-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs), so bad.

TULSHYAN:

... I wanna double down and say, like, "It really is harmful," it's actually harmful. It's harmful because I have sat in rooms where amazing, brilliant women, people of color, people from other underestimated identities have turned around and said like, "I had no idea what my manager meant. It was like being like hit in the face when I was given feedback around executive presence, or leadership presence, or Gravitas, or imposter syndrome," which is, you know, something I have a very deep, strong, (laughs), opinion on, and confidence issues, and I think that we really need to, er, pull this back all the way if we want to make the kind of change that we aspire to.

HOLLOWAY:

Alright, now it is time for our rapid fire questions, are you ready?

TULSHYAN:

I'm trying to be, (laughs). This always makes me-

HOLLOWAY:

I know.

TULSHYAN:

... nervous, I will say, (laughs).

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs). We'll start easy, I promise, we'll start easy. First question, "What song are you vibing to most right now," so what- what's your current bop?

TULSHYAN:

Oo, it's, you know, it's an old one, it's- it's, "Upgrade U," by Beyoncé and Jay-Z.

HOLLOWAY:

Oh yeah, yeah, I dig it. "What is one thing on your desk that brings you joy?"

TULSHYAN:

It's a picture of me holding my son as a gift for Mother's Day, my first Mother's Day.

HOLLOWAY:

Oh, sweet baby, "What's your son's name?"

TULSHYAN:

Veer, it means, "Brave warrior."

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah, it does, oh my goodness. Next question, third question, "What is a guiding light you found to be true throughout your career?"

TULSHYAN:

Mm, "We can't do this alone." If you wanna go far, you gotta walk together. If you wanna go fast, you can walk alone, that's an African proverb, but to go far, walk together.

HOLLOWAY:

Always together, even when it's hard.

TULSHYAN:

Mm-hmm.

HOLLOWAY:

I love that, and final question, it's something that is important for me to ask of every guest on the show, and that is, "When was the last time you were deeply proud of something you accomplished?"

TULSHYAN:

Mm, yesterday actually. I had my final session with an amazing business coach I've worked with for two and a half years, and she said, "What are you most proud of," right? And I said, "I'm so proud of growing from being an- an always-on, grind, hustle-

HOLLOWAY:

Yeah.

TULSHYAN:

... sleep when you're dead, (laughs), type of-

HOLLOWAY:

(laughs).

TULSHYAN:

... mentality, to one where I really prioritize rest and myself and, you know, mental health.

HOLLOWAY:

Well, I'm proud of you for that now too. Uh, it's so important-

TULSHYAN:

Thank you.

HOLLOWAY:

... and it is so hard to do. That is a beautiful one, and I love that to end our show on. So, Ruchika, thank you so much for doing all of the work that you do out there in this wild and strange world. Please keep leading authentically.

TULSHYAN:

Thank you so much Katelin, and, er, to anyone listening, please do celebrate your wins, if you're doing impactful, purpose-driven work, especially around DEI, it- there are many, many hard days, and weeks, and years, and months, and whatever, please celebrate the wins as they come.

HOLLOWAY:

Could not have said it better myself. Absolutely, let's go celebrate gang. Thank you so much Ruchika.

TULSHYAN:

Thank you, (laughs), we did it.

HOLLOWAY:

We did it, that was fun. That was so fun.

TULSHYAN:

(laughs).

HOLLOWAY:

That was so fun.

And to you dear listeners, thank you so very much for joining me on this week's episode of, "All Hands." I'm your host Katelin Holloway. Follow, "All Hands," wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode, and if you like the show, tell a friend about us, or give us a shout on social. This podcast is brought to you by Lattice. Learn more about how Lattice helps companies deliver great business results with smart people strategy at Lattice.com. Find us on Twitter @LatticeHQ. All Hands is produced by Lattice in partnership with Pod People. Special thanks to our production team, Christine Swor, Annette Cardwell, Rachael King, Aimee Machado, Hannah Pedersen, Danielle Roth, David Zwick and Carter Wogahn.

I'll see you next time on All Hands. Until then my friends, please keep leading authentically.