Adobe’s Scott Belsky Talks About How Creativity Breeds Good Culture

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“To use analogy of almost like an immune system. The team you could feel was healthy and then when something went off, you could really feel that there was like something in the system that was wrong and had to be addressed. And, and then you get to the point where you scale beyond that and you realize, actually this immune system is no longer in my, in my hands anymore. And you know, I think that those experiences were really important in my evolution as a leader of teams.”

Welcome to ALL HANDS by Lattice, where we believe that People Strategy IS Business Strategy. I’m your host -- Katelin Holloway. For the last decade, I’ve been a People & Culture executive at some of the internet’s most beloved startups, but my fascination with building true people-first cultures started many, many years ago. From film to tech (and a few interesting layovers in between), the one common denominator remains: I am most passionate about enabling people through belonging to create beautiful, innovative products."

On All Hands, I talk with CEOs and other c-level leaders about the importance of people strategy and creating a supportive culture -- which is more important than ever. Join us while we chat with these top leaders about how a “people first” approach isn’t just good for people -- it’s good for business too.

Today we’re talking with Scott Belsky, Chief Product Officer and Executive Vice President of Creative Cloud at Adobe.

Scott has led a fascinating career. He is an entrepreneur, early stage investor, advisor, author, and father of three. But at his core, he is the creative industry’s Commander-In-Chief. Having co-founded the creative platform Behance back in 2006, Scott would go on to author two national bestselling books - Making Ideas Happen and The Messy Middle. In 2010 Behance was acquired by Adobe, where Belsky joined the executive ranks for over 3 years. Benchmark Capital lured him away to be General Partner for some time, but he eventually made his way back to Adobe where he continues his advocacy for technology and community initiatives that empower creative people and help businesses leverage the creative potential of their teams.

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‍Katelin Holloway:  Today we get the opportunity to dive a bit deeper into Scott's people philosophies and how creativity may just be the key to unlocking company culture.
Scott, welcome to the show.

Scott Belsky:  Thanks for having me.

Katelin Holloway:  Thank you so much. So now your career arc has been shared many a time out in the world, but I'd appreciate it if you could share just a little bit about your background and where you are today, please.

Scott Belsky:  Sure. Well, uh, I, uh, started off as an entrepreneur, uh, starting a company called Behance [00:01:00] with the mission to help organize the creative world at work.

And that was, uh, a journey, uh, it was five years of being a bootstrapped company, almost two years as a venture backed business. Uh, then getting acquired by Adobe, coming in and taking over a number of the parts of creative cloud, the mobile products, the services, basically things beyond the flagship products themselves.

Then, uh, after about three years, spent some time being an investor, then realized how much I missed being an operator and building products and especially being just part of this transformation in the creative world these days, as more people want to have the tools and the skills. And so came back to Adobe in this, uh, role as Chief Product Officer. So overseeing all of our  creative products and services and really trying to chart the course for the future of creativity.

Katelin Holloway:  You talked a little bit about what inspired you to build Behance from the beginning. But what were some of your core principles going into that as an entrepreneur? What were some of the things that, that helped drive that mission and vision forward for you?

Scott Belsky:  I think I oscillated at the time between being passionate for the solution that I felt the creative community needed  versus making [00:03:00] sure that I had a really great sense of the problem and the kind of, the empathy, you know, for those suffering the problem.
You know, we, we had one focus group in the history of Behance where we brought a small group of creatives into the room and said to them, well, you know, do you need a, a portfolio platform to showcase your work. And we described what we were doing. Universally everyone said no.
And, uh, we were like, really? uh oh, and the answers were, well, we have My Space, we have Facebook, we have LinkedIn, we don't need another place to put up our work. you know, and that was one of those moments where I realized we were doing it all wrong.
We actually had to be asking the question as to what they were struggling with. You know, what was really keeping people up at night. And it was, well, I never get attribution for my work. My [00:04:00] portfolio site is always out of date, and the only people that ever visited are people that already know me. So it's not really serving as the lead gen, lead generation, you know, source that I need.
My work has always ripped off, whatever, without any link back. All for really, you know, I have no place to see what all of the creatives that I'm friends with that I work with. I have no place to go see what they've done most recently. And, you know, kind of the list went down and we realize, okay, actually they do need a network for creative professionals. It's just one of those things where no one knows what they need and so that was, that was very informing of how we would build the business, which was to be shoulder to shoulder with our customers and really, you know, build the product based on empathy.

Katelin Holloway:  Did you feel like the, the product helped shape your internal culture in that way?

Scott Belsky:  [00:05:00] it did. We always had an office with, with members of Behance coming in, um, people from other parts of the world. When they would come in New York City, they would just swing by Behance and we were trying to build a community by offering a really undeniable sense of utility to our early customers. And then we were trying to build top of that, something that kind of surprised people in unexpected ways.

Katelin Holloway:  So as you're, you're building the company internally, let's turn the lens inside. How many people at the time of acquisition did Behance actually have employed full time?

Scott Belsky:  So at the time of acquisition, we probably had around 30 or so people.
I always tried to keep the team super, super small and really just, if you have people and really capable people and really scalable processes, you actually don't need to throw people at a problem in order to scale.
And I'll tell you, there's this ongoing debate of whether it's healthier to have a team that is more like a sports team or more like a family. And there are distinct differences in both and how you want to manage and build a team going forward. For us, we have to stick together long enough to figure it out.
The Behance journey was one that included a few years of [00:07:00] sideways motion. There were a couple of, you know, we'll call them lost years of Behance in terms of what, you know, what was possible. And, um, and so we had to make sure that we had the, uh, the culture that just kept people together even when there was no sort of light at the end of the tunnel and no clear sense of reward.

Katelin Holloway:  Something that I think I've discovered over time is that you can take a different approach or you can take different parts of each of those models at different phases of a business life cycle.
And something that I personally really love about the building phase of, of a company is that family phase. When you're small and you have no choice but to know everything about everyone and, and be intimately involved with, with these people and their families and their partners and their friends because you are building together. And as a CEO or as a founder, you are, you were asking so much of them, uh, and you, you do wind up deeply, deeply caring about them. Um, that's not to say [00:08:00] performance should not be involved at all.

Scott Belsky:  Yeah, I think it's a good insight actually. That maybe there's different periods of a business where you're more like one or the other. And probably also the answer is you can't be on one end, either end of the spectrum. You have to kind of be in the middle. The truth though is that you can't have a high performing team and keep them if you have some C players around, because we're only as strong as the person who is, uh, you know, who, if you, if you have someone who's not doing the work that they need to be doing, everything kinda crumbles.

Katelin Holloway:  Absolutely. And especially on a small team, that is so amplified. Um, you know, so if you're a team of 30 being acquired by a much, much larger organization, I'm sure that everything is amplified. Now, what were some of the most precious things about the Behance culture that you knew you wanted to take with you when you were going into the Adobe biosphere?

Scott Belsky:  Well, I think [00:09:00] we had a deep connection to the creative community, and I think that's actually one of the things that Adobe found most attractive about our team. And in fact, a lot of the people that did stay for many years and are still, you know, at Adobe are kind of, uh, the carriers, you know, of some of this.
And we had two people actually who stayed for two or three years, left and then came back. you know, if that's any indication of the type of culture that we. We had built. I think there's also, of course, we were a services organization that was driven on MAO and engagement and like certain metrics that we, were very native to us, but, but Adobe had transitioned from a software to a services business, and in some ways were still developing those motions of how to, how to build a really healthy, engaged offering. So there were, there were a bunch of things we brought with us like that.
As opposed to a lot of Silicon Valley companies that buy a company and say, okay, forget everything you knew, like, here's what you're going to do now. Adobe was very much the opposite. You know, we, we, we buy companies, we say, what can we learn from them and how can they change us as a business?

Katelin Holloway:  You have written so much and you are so prolific in helping bridge the gap between creatives and business and really trying to create this space of innovation and a lot of it comes through in, in language around people, practices and philosophy, how to build teams, hiring, all of these things together. They really, for me, are our behavioral studies are pattern matching that you've developed over time.
When do you think you started listening to those questions in your own self? Like when did you start paying attention to those patterns? When did you start assessing and looking at wanting to articulate what culture was or how people were operating together and the impact of business?

Scott Belsky:  Hmm. Interesting. Well, I would say there are two, you know, two things really come to mind. So one is my job right out of college. Uh, I went and worked, [00:16:00] of all places at Goldman Sachs, you know, in a finance function and, and really hated it. You know, every day it felt like a monotonous waste of my energy and potential.
And so I was maybe a year and a half into that and I was really ready to just bounce and do something completely different and then I went to my manager and she said to me, well, if there were one other job at the firm that you would want to have, what would it be? And I said, well, it'd be really interesting to learn how things are run, like how leaders are identified, succession planning and I got lucky because a guy by the name of Steve Kerr, not the basketball coach, but another one who had worked under Jack Welch at GE for many years building Crotonville, which was their kind of leadership development Institute.
He had been hired by Hank Paulson, the CEO at the time of [00:17:00] Goldman to run a small team and the executive office focused on exactly this, succession planning and leadership development. Uh, almost like some management consulting type stuff for the firm and for key clients as well. And so I interviewed for this team and it was a tiny team, I was the most junior member of it, and from that moment forward, I had a three year education, uh, on leadership development.
And, and so that period was a really great education for me. I'd be very convinced in the, into an experiential education that employees have to have in the, the necessity for people to be stretched. The chemistry of what makes co-head-ships work and not work and partnerships fail and whatever. And then taking [00:18:00] all that, you know, the second thing that comes to mind is just Behance and cultivating a team from zero and picking, uh, Matias who became ultimately became a co-founder level, um, partner of mine. But for a while, while I was tinkering with this idea, it was just a freelancer designer that I was hiring.
And then we built a team and I really, just trying to go through the different phases of a team's growth, like you first think you're going to be able to control everything. And I liked to use analogy of almost like an immune system. The team you could feel was healthy and then when something went off, you could really feel that there was like something in the system that was wrong and had to be addressed. And, and then you get to the point where you scale beyond that and you realize, actually this immune system is no longer in my, in my hands anymore. And you know, I think that those experiences were really important in my evolution as a leader of teams.

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Katelin: I think the immune analogy is totally spot on. One way that companies track the health of their culture as they scale is through engagement surveys. Having a pulse on the sentiment of your teams, allows you to quickly identify which areas of the system need immediate attention. They won’t be perfect -- and they’re just one piece of the puzzle -- but consider engagement surveys a diagnostic tool to help your leadership and HR teams know where to focus.

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Katelin Holloway: At what point do you feel just from, from, your, your background and your history, not only of managing and running your own companies and teams of teams within larger organizations, but from an investor perspective, uh, what is the advice that you give to some of your founders around like when, when they might need to start letting go? Or when they need to start transitioning from fingers in every pot and having that, that direct pulse to like, I need to trust my team or I look to other measures to understand the health of my organization?

Scott Belsky:  Well, it's a great question because I hear from a lot of founders who tell me, you know, we're, we're growing our business now. And so these are all the people we want to hire ahead of this, ahead of that. And, uh, and sometimes the founder is an incredible product mind, just an amazing product thinker. And he or she wants to hire a Head of Product.
And I'm like, why do you want to do that? I mean, that's the one thing that you can do better than anyone else in the world. Why would you want to abstract [00:20:00] yourself in any way, shape or form from that part of your business, you know, in the foreseeable future or maybe even ever?
Yeah. And it's, you know, and then the other hand, things like finance and operations or whatever, that you're not the best in the world, that by all means, you know, hire people and delegate it away and know what the questions are you need to ask and, um, and, and take it, take it at that point. So I actually think that it's, it's a very personal question, right?
What is it that you think you're the absolute best at that you need to be right front and center. You know, at the contributor level in your business, and then everything else, you know ,you need to abstract yourself from at some point.

Katelin Holloway: Are there any like core principles that you are like, these are my tried and true, no matter where you go as a leader, you are most certainly going to bring these people practices with you?

Scott Belsky:  There are, there are a number, and they're all in different categories of, you know, hiring people, developing people, how do you lead people towards both a flag planted as well as the road, the road building it takes to get there?
One is the important of narrative, importance of narrative and merchandising, that narrative over and over and over again. There's just so much research that suggests that progress begets progress. And when you feel you're making progress, you know you're more motivated to do the things, to continue it. And that involves a lot of, uh, recitation and a lot of kind of helping people know where we are, where we've been and where we're going.

Katelin Holloway: Right.

Scott Belsky: And, and I, over the years have tried to be very creative in how we do that. I feel like there's this, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars spent every year on creative marketing to get people to do things, to get us to change our behaviors. Why aren't we using some of those same tactics to get our team and ourselves to do things on a daily basis that matter?
And it's like billboards in the office. Like why isn't the office filled with billboards? So things that matter, I mean, it doesn't make any sense, right? Why should any wall be bare if in the, if, if on [00:23:00] the main highway, every, every wall is posture with an advertisement.
The other thing I would say is I really, really subscribe to the idea of being very pragmatic and paranoid about the present but being very optimistic about the future and making sure that every meeting and every interaction sort of incorporates both.

Katelin Holloway: Absolutely.

Scott Belsky: And you know, and that means always kind of being very like, down to earth and saying, Hey, this is not going well. Like we're not making enough progress. We're falling behind. This is what the competition's doing. This is what we're doing wrong. Like, you know, be very forthright, get into the details, be willing to be uncomfortable, but then always end with a, [00:24:00] well, let's just take a step back, I mean, the opportunity we have ahead of us, look how qualified our team is, and look how much momentum we have and look what the world's going to look like in the future. Like, is anyone better position than us to make that? So you have to have that balance.

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Katelin: Transparency is one of the keys to being a great people-first-leader. Another thing that’s valuable? Being able to reflect inward and see if YOU’RE the one creating a problem.

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Katelin Holloway: Have you ever had to assess if you are maybe a part of, of a problem or contributing to a behavioral, um, pattern that you thought maybe wasn't healthy?

Scott Belsky: Oh sure. I mean, I've been a part of, I've been a part of many problems. [Laughter] I mean, you want to have an atmosphere where you have people that can tell you what you're doing wrong. And, uh, you know, there've been times where I have overstepped the boundaries on, you know, my design team needing a process where they can kind of go through a lot of iterations and have [00:26:00] some space to explore different paths without having to defend some of the decisions they've made, you know, that are only half baked and I love being involved with that process. And as a result, you know, I can feel like I'm being, you know, thoughtful and helpful, and they can feel like I'm being, uh, you know, disruptive. And, uh, and so the, you know, over the years, I mean, there've been many confrontations. I actually love, uh, teams that can kind of debate not only product direction, but also the roles that each other's playing and what's working, and what's not working.
Because if you can do that, and actually know that it's part of the process of the company becoming better than I mean, you're in the top 1%.

Katelin Holloway: Right.

Scott Belsky: 'Cause this stuff always exists. I mean, people do offensive or non-helpful things all the time. And usually it's not intentional. Usually it's coming from the standpoint of I'm insecure,I'm afraid of something, or [00:27:00] I'm overexerting something because I'm not, you know, I don't have confidence in something or whatever. We just have to talk about it.

Katelin Holloway: I completely agree. Now when you are advising or chatting with, with first time founders or, or entrepreneurs who are younger in their careers and you see them like you, you know, being on the outside of their company, you see them getting in their own way and they can't see it to save their lives.
What advice do you have to help them illuminate maybe what some of those, those challenges that they are contributing to are?

Scott Belsky: First of all, very few people who observed this say something. You know, unfortunately most investors or advisors or even board members don't feel incentivized to kind of, stir up the pot and potentially alienate the founder with difficult, difficult to swallow a feedback.
But you have to, I [00:28:00] mean, you have to try .And I don't find it easy, but I really push myself to say, listen, you know, I, you know, you got to couch it with the positive as well. But I do, is it helpful for you to hear like some of the things that I'm seeing that I, I think could be done differently or better? I mean, is this, does it helpful? Is it helpful to have some outside data points and you know, usually always hear yes. And then the, and then you have to proceed to say like, listen, what I was seeing was this, or what I would have expected was here, you know this, but I actually saw something completely different and I'm just trying to reconcile this in my mind.
It could be about the way that they interacted. I mean, there was a, there are co-founders of a company that I ended up investing in that I was working with  and I was also introducing them to other investors and, uh, and I noticed in my conversations with them and also in some other conversations that other investors had that one, like always spoke over the other.
And it's just like, couldn't get it out of [00:29:00] my mind. It was so frustrating to me to not, it would be horrible if they didn't know that they were coming across this way, and so I did, you know, I did share it with them very bluntly, and you know, and they were like, it was one of those epiphanies for them.
You know? They didn't really see it either.

Katelin Holloway: Now how is giving feedback to a founder or an entrepreneur different than giving feedback to somebody on your own team? Is it, is it similar or is it different because of the power dynamic shift?

Scott Belsky: Yeah. I think there is a difference. There is a difference in it because. I mean, at the end of the day, the founder can do whatever the hell they want, right, with, with your feedback or someone on your team, you know, they now know you're measuring them on this. And then your eye is on it and it's going to likely impact their performance as you see it, and maybe even compensation.
So there is, there's gotta be a difference there somewhere, [00:30:00]  but I actually, you know, my approach on both is very similar, which is I'm a partner of the people that I work with and they're a partner of mine. And, uh, and by the way, I also try to always ask for feedback when I give the feedback too.
Sometimes they even ask for it first because then it's easier for them to then receive it if they've just given some to you. Right? But in the spirit of, you know, in the spirit of us working together better, and I'm like, what can I be doing differently to either clear the path for you, help you be more empowered to get this stuff done? You know, just give me some tips and then they'll likely say, oh, and how about me? Uh, and you should not hold back. Um, you should not hold back.

Katelin Holloway: The world of COVID has absolutely helped us crystallize our prioritize, um, this need to make decisions without all of the information. From your perspective in, in leading your teams, um, within the Adobe organization, outside of the obvious of working remotely, has the pandemic had any meaningful effects on your company?

Scott Belsky: You know, I've been thinking a lot about, a lot about what's going on here because in some weird ways, there've been a lot of productivity gains we've all made and all of our businesses over the last decade or more from the new technologies and the new practices that we've adopted but of that productivity that we've gained by all these new ways of doing things, we haven't realized all of it. We've only realized part of it.
There's a lot of unrealized productivity gain from all the new ways we work and the new tech. And the reason it's unrealized is because there are [00:36:00] holdouts in the form of people who continue to email, even though they're Slack. The people who continue to meet every Thursday, just because it's Thursday, not realizing that there's a standup or that it's actually there's nothing actionable ever comes of this meeting. There's just a lot of stuff that we have held onto as holdouts, and all of us are guilty of this, that have actually gotten in the way of realizing the full productivity gain of what tech has enabled us to do. And in some ways, COVID as a crisis has forced us to refactor, massively.
So suddenly it's like all, all hiring frozen, like no one knows what's going on tomorrow or next week or next month. And so you're really, there's like a massive, great refactoring happening right now across every industry. And I believe that in that process, everyone is actually mining the unrealized productivity gain that we've been kind of accruing for years. And so you could actually argue [00:37:00] that coming out of this, big knock on wood, sooner than later, we will all maybe be a step function more productive in some weird way. I mean, maybe margins will go up, um, because a lot of the inefficiencies that just lingered in the system, because no one had the incentive to confront them, are suddenly eliminated. And so that is actually something that I, I'm thinking a lot about it and seeing some evidence of in the way our teams work.

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Katelin: This makes a ton of sense to me. We’re seeing an emphasis put on the partnership between HR and leaders through all types of crises. Unless you were alive in 1918, we haven’t experienced a global health crisis at this level, and many haven’t experienced the civil unrest in the 1950’s and 60’s. Leaders and HR people are trying to quickly pivot to provide support for their employees in a time where nothing is certain -- and some of these changes are things people in the HR community have been talking about for years --- flexible and remote policies, 4-day work weeks, and programs that are designed to support people more holistically are just the tip of the iceberg.

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Katelin Holloway: Have there been any shifts in your culture that [00:42:00] you are really excited to bring with you? Where you're like, we ain't going back on this, I'm taking this with me.

Scott Belsky:  I think the willingness to have difficult conversations remotely, you know, it's just such an unlock for productivity and decisiveness and, and just like not making teams wait. So I obviously hope to bring that. Um, even though some folks would say that those sensitive conversations should still happen in person. I think also the level of transparency around crisis management. You know, why, why do we only do that in crisis management of this? You know, why don't we bring that transparency to other thought processes and decisions. I mean, typically when you're making a change in an organization, everyone is very tight lipped and there was like a very, cascade [00:43:00] moment where everything comes out.
But in this, in a crisis, typically everyone is ambient and everyone's in like, you know, they even call it the Situation Room, or you know, the War Room or whatever. And like, why don't we, why don't we have the benefits of that more readily, more often?

Katelin Holloway:  I think that's a great sentiment. Um, and I, I agree. We're going to, we're going to end this with a few rapid fire questions, three questions very quickly. Don't overthink it. Are you ready?

Scott Belsky: Yes.

Katelin Holloway:  Okay. Is a hotdog a sandwich?

Scott Belsky:  No...I'm a [00:44:00] vegetarian like, I don't even know.

Katelin Holloway: Oh, is a veggie dog a sandwich? [Laughter]

Scott Belsky: Is a tofu dog a sandwich?

Katelin Holloway: Uh, no, the answer is no. Zoom or phone call?

Scott Belsky: Zoom.

Katelin Holloway: Mac Paint or HyperCard?

Scott Belsky: Ooh. HyperCard.

Katelin Holloway: Nice. Okay. The last few here won't be so easy. One we have already touched upon, but I'm going to give it to you anyway.
Company culture, sports team, or family?

Scott Belsky: Ultimately, sports team.

Katelin Holloway: Okay. Now, what is your favorite interview question and why?

Scott Belsky: Well, I think it has to do with what someone's interests are and what they did about it. And I think the reason is because that is a measure of initiative. And I've always believed that hiring [00:45:00] people with initiative surpasses your expectations far more than hiring people with experience.

Katelin Holloway:  If you were to ask yourself that question, would you hire you?

Scott Belsky: Depends, for what job, um, for job. But yeah, I mean, I think I, I am, you know, I've, I've gotten by more in initiative and experience in my life for sure.

Katelin Holloway:  Okay. Last one. This is my personal favorite interview question that I ask of potential future employers. When was the last time you wanted something so badly it hurt?

Scott Belsky: Hmm. Interesting.  
I [00:46:00] think, I think it may have been, it may have been at the, uh, at the point where I decided to write, uh, my latest book. It was a combination of just years of writing things down and thinking about the connections between them. And, uh, and I just told myself prior to that that I would never write another book and I didn't want to do that. Um, but then suddenly, you know, something flipped and I just really wanted to make it happen. And, um, and it was not easy to do. So given the climate of what I was doing in my day job and what I was going through, but I wanted it so badly, it hurt.

Katelin Holloway: That's awesome. I love that. Thank you for answering.
We're going to end with one final question, and this is not rapid fire at all, but you know, given, given our conversation around the pandemic, what advice would you give to founders and people leaders out there trying to make sense of things? How can they use this as an opportunity to build a better organization in this next chapter?

Scott Belsky: Well, I think that we know from just, a lot of research now that adversity brings teams closer. That it builds character. I mean, we all know all the cliches are on what crisis does. And um, and we've also all met people later in their career who all come, you know, when you ask them what really made them who they are? It's oftentimes a difficult period in their career. They don't cite the year where everything went well. They cite the year where everything kind of went to shit. And so here we are, um, this is a very crazy world right now. There's just a lot of despair and sadness.
In fact, we could just be sad all day. I mean, all of us have known people who've been affected. [00:48:00] And yet we have to kind of try to grow from this. And you know, and I know that if, you know, with the energy we have left, to pay attention to these students right now, um, is, uh, you know, it's, it's really like a once in a lifetime opportunity to some degree. It's weird to put it that way, but it's true.

Katelin Holloway: It's true.

Scott Belsky: I think that's the kind of an innate curiosity you have to kind of have and then apply, and get your team to buy into it in order to make the most of this.

Katelin Holloway: I love that. I think that's, not only is it beautiful and eloquent, but I, it also is very parallel to what you described and making a great team and being a great leader. You have to show up and be, you know, very sober about what's happening in the moment, but continue to have the ability to look forward and be really positive about the future. Otherwise, screw it. Right?

Scott Belsky: Yes, exactly.

Katelin Holloway: So, well, Scott, thank you so much for joining me. I am so grateful to have this, this time spent together and I am so looking forward to watching all of these things play out [00:49:00] for you. And I really hope that you can take some of these and, and amplify them even further. I think there's some really great stuff in here, so thank you.

Scott Belsky: Awesome. Thank you, Katelin, for having me and this is awesome and proud to be involved.

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Katelin Holloway VO:

And to you, the listener! Thanks so much for joining me on this week’s episode of All Hands, brought to you by Lattice. I’m your host, Katelin Holloway.
This episode was produced by Pod People: Rachael King, Eliza Lambert [AH-liza], and Samantha Gattsek [GATT-sic]. Special thanks to Annette Cardwell. Learn more about how Lattice can help your business stay people focused at Lattice DOT com or find us on Twitter @LatticeHQ. Don’t forget to subscribe to All Hands, wherever you get your podcasts.

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Join us next time!

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