The promises of the four-day workweek sound too good to be true: Increasing productivity, reducing stress, and encouraging work-life balance. But two years into a four-day workweek experiment, Buffer CEO Joel Gascoigne says the reality is just as good as it sounds. Joel shares pros, cons, and what he wished his team knew when they first set out on this journey.
Transcript
Katelin: Welcome to All Hands, a podcast brought to you by Lattice, where people success is business success. I’m your host KATELIN HOLLOWAY.
What if I told you there was a way to increase productivity, reduce stress, and encourage work-life balance for your People? Sounds too good to be true, right?
Well, that’s the promise of the four day work week… Companies like Microsoft, Unilever, and even the government of Iceland have piloted this and have seen impressive results.
Today I talk with an early adopter of the four day work week. Joel Gascoigne "Gas-Coin." is the CEO of Buffer… a dashboard that let’s businesses analyze and plan their content. Buffer has been on the forefront of many people-forward policies for the past ten years… so when the pandemic amped up the stress on his people, Joel once again took a people-focused approach.
Joel Gascoigne:
"I heard it best described as you have work and you have maybe leisure, or your family time, and then there's also this like other pieces that most people don't have, but it's, I've heard it described as idleness, pure rest and for me that's just thinking. But the disconnect from the work helps the work."
Buffer is now two years into this four day work week experiment. Joel shares pros, cons, and what he wished he knew when he first set out on this journey.
Katelin: Joel, welcome to All Hands!
Joel: Thanks, Katelin. It's great to be here. Excited for the conversation.
Katelin: So happy to have you on the show. This is a topic that I am so excited to get into. We're gonna go very deep on the notion of a four day work week. But before we get into that goodness, if you could please for a second share with our audience, uh, a little bit more about yourself.
Joel: I'm Joel. I'm the founder CEO of Buffer.I started Buffer about, it'll be 12 years towards the end of this year. So it's been a long and up and down journey throughout that. I'm originally from the UK. So I'm living in Boulder, Colorado now.
Katelin: I love that place.
Joel: I love it here. We moved in 2018, so before the pandemic.
Katelin: And you all, to be clear, Buffer was actually fully remote pre pandemic, right?
Joel: That's correct. We have been fully remote pretty much since our inception.So yeah, we've been, we have been remote for, I would say, you know, 10 years now and, and, uh, yeah, figured out a lot of this, the way of doing things that works for us on, in remote
Katelin: You all are so ahead of the curve on, on so much of this.And so knowing that you all-
Joel: Yes.
Katelin: ... had that muscle, uh, way ahead of time, probably enabled you to think more creatively about what it means to be at work and what was going to work best for your organization. Can we jump into the four day work week? I am dying to know-
Joel: Yeah.
Katelin: ...everything about it
Joel: Yeah, let's do it. And it's actually interesting, I guess, to kind of like connect it to the, to remote work because we were remote already allowed us to think about other things that we could be considering at the onset of the pandemic when we've felt that impact in early, you know, 2020.
Katelin: Every company at the beginning of the pandemic was scrambling to, you know, where's the pandemic playbook, how can we help engage our people? How can we support our people? At least the great companies were doing that.
Joel: Yeah.
Katelin: And so as you all were putting your heads together, uh, saying, hey, look, we already have that flexibility that's needed right now for people to work from, from wherever they may be. How, how did this idea of the four day work week get put on the table? Where, what was the genesis?
Joel: Yeah, so the four day work week for us at Buffer, I would say has been one of those things that's been thrown around many, many times over the years. And we've always aimed to, you know, explore and experiment and try different things within how we work. We had a phase of the company where we tried having no managers and being, you know, totally completely flat.
Katelin: Holacracy. Yeah.
Joel: ...holacracy, yeah. We had our own, uh, ex exploration of that. Didn't work out for us. We learned a lot from that, but, you know, four day work week for-
Katelin: Yeah. Spoiler alert.
Joel: ...(laughs) yeah, yeah. The concepts around the four day work week we had, uh, talked about quite a bit. I personally have always enjoyed experimenting with how I spend my time working, not working, you know, other things. Way back I remember I had a blog post I wrote about a seven day work week, which sounds extreme and the opposite of a four day work week.
That was a failure. But I've, yeah, enjoyed trying a lot of different things.
Katelin: (laughs).
Joel: ... so, so the four day work week it'd been floating around enough and then, and then the pandemic happened and lockdowns happened and people are, you know, especially, parents. You've got kids at home, it's just chaos. And so we've just started thinking like what can we do to help here? And it was also what we can do to help our customers. So we kind of ended up with this like three pronged thought process around how we can get through this as a business, the business matters.
How can we help customers get through this? And we serve small businesses. So we had a lot of customers impacted and we experienced churn, which kind of relates to the business aspect as well. And then how can we help our team get through this? At least to the extent that we can, obviously this is a big external force that impacts far beyond work, but what can we do to help smooth things out a little bit and reduce some of that anxiety and, and the challenges.
Pretty quickly the four day work week came to our minds. Initially we threw around the idea of what about a Friday off every month or things like that. I was kind of thinking, well, we've talked about it before, so why not just go all the way?
What about we just actually try a four day work week?
Katelin: There's so much in here I have questions about. Let me start with actually a personal question here. So knowing that you have been tinkering with time and productivity and output for as long as you have something you said stood out to me, and it was something that I think was on, on the top of mind for, for many organizations at the start of the pandemic was parents.
Parents have easily been one of the communities that has been incredibly impacted by this.I have two young kids at home, uh, myself do you have children at home?
Joel: Yes. So I became a parent in the pandemic, so I have a 13 month old.
Katelin: Ah
Joel: Becoming a parent and dealing with all the challenges. And, you know, we're still in the pandemic, right. So there's still challenges you know, it's a little different than the, that first, maybe six to 12 months, but-
Katelin: Right.
Joel: It's still, we're still in the thick of it, so yeah.
Katelin: (laughs) Absolutely. Kids really mess with the time space continuum, like on a good day in a normal scenario (laughs).
Joel: Oh yeah. That's very true. I mean the first couple of months, I remember actually feeling this new appreciation of time and just the key thing I recall about time in the first two months of being a parent was just that like, well, now, now you're in the present. There's no, there's no way around. You can't think about the past or future at this point in time because, you know, he's sleeping now, but he could be awake in two minutes or he might be sleeping for 40 minutes, who knows.
Katelin: (laughs).
Joel: So it really forced me to, to say, okay what can I do right now? Just that, that focus in, in that moment. And then of course the focus in the moments with him and the presence there as well, and having to be really present too. So yeah, obviously a beautiful thing to experience.
Katelin: I used to tell people, you know, what's something that you learned just after you became a mother. And th- that was essentially my answer. As I said, my children taught me how to be mindful. I did not have a mindfulness practice prior to children. Uh, but it was forced upon me.
Speaking of, of being parents, the early days of the pandemic that was maybe the catalyst for you all choosing to do this saying, hey, this is the perfect time for us to try and to, to almost have what we thought would be a time box around it, right. So trial period, you know, given to us on a platter. But before all of that, there are things that I've heard you say in the past more, more specifically around your goal as a CEO, as managing people over profit. And you saw in 2020 worker stress and burnout as a debt. Can you share a little bit more about people over profit?
Chef Seth Stowaway: Yeah, absolutely. This is a longer term belief that operating it just with people over profit in mind is gonna ultimately also lead to profit in the most optimal way.
I think 2020 was an especially unique time where I just felt like this is just the right thing to do. And let's get through this without incurring more of a debt in a way. Reflecting on it in the early, uh, first month or so I just arrived at this, uh, conclusion and belief that I wanna get through it as much as it's possible.
I think 2020 was an especially unique time where I just felt like this is just the right thing to do. And let's get through this without incurring more of a debt in a way. Reflecting on it in the early, uh, first month or so I just arrived at this, uh, conclusion and belief that I wanna get through it as much as it's possible.
There's obviously so much that happens. Since then, there's the great resignation which we've not completely escaped ourselves.
Katelin: Yeah.
Joel: But that was the motive, it's also more of a long term belief, I will say. Buffer is, is, is a little... we, we're a little weird. We (laughs) we've done two rounds of funding. We've also spent 3.3 million buying out our main VC investors, which we did in mid 2018. For me, all of that is-
Katelin: Congratulations.
Joel: ...Thank you. (laughs) yeah.
And it's, it's really all about, can we follow our own true, you know, best destiny in a way, like what, what is the path that it, we are uniquely well placed to go, can we go there like wholeheartedly? And I'm not saying you can't find VCs that would fully support that, but it's sometimes can be challenging.
Katelin: So I, I, I'm in. I'm in.
Joel: (laughs) Yeah. Absolutely. And, and those are the, those are the VCs you want for sure.
It's really about that, more of that alignment with, with the mission and the approach of the company. So that's, you know, you to tie that back to people over profit, it just allows us to very clearly say we-
... and for me the goal with Buffer, you know, I'm almost 12 years in, at this point and I wanna go another decade. I'm just as excited now as I was in the first few years. I don't say that lightly. I really wanna create a company that thrives and also goes through multiple cycles, market cycles, pandemics, I guess. Now we had to figure that out.
Katelin: Yeah.
Joel: ...yeah, just, adapting as we need to, and staying nimble, in order to exist long term. And so things change a little bit, I think when you make that, the goal, you're not trying to, you know, uh-
Katelin: Yeah.
Joel: ...exit at the high, you're really going through all the ups and downs, creating a real business, thinking about profitability being more self-sustaining, things like that.
Katelin: I love everything that you just said, and I will double down on the idea of people over profits. But I think that we should expand that, uh, to include more of what you just shared. People over profits will create a sustainable thriving culture that will in turn create outsized returns, right. That's what I'm hearing you say.
Joel: A hundred percent.
Katelin: This isn't just, hey, we're here to run a nonprofit and we just enjoy one another's company. This is about really creating-
Joel: Yes.
Katelin: ... a sustainable business that puts people at the heart of, of what it is that we are doing every single day, whether those people are your employees or your customers. That's something else that I wanna point out, for our audience is that you have brought up your customers, uh, several times in this conversation already wanting to do what's right by them as well.
And I, it is, we share the belief that if you do right by people, regardless of what cohort they sit in, in your, your ecosystem-
Joel: Yeah
Katelin: ... they will absolutely return all of this in spades in the form of things that, that matter to us, or should matter to us that includes resources like, like money. Yes, we are in a for-profit world in this scenario. But also in, in care and in connection and that, that depth of belongingness which I hear so much about the culture that you are building.
I would love to talk about is, you know, like I said, there are so many people, leaders and, and CEOs that are early in their company building phase that are, are looking for and, and wanting to play with this idea of instituting the four day work week.
We talked a little bit about running this kind of as a pilot program and, and you're now two years into this. If I'm listening in as a people leader I'm, I'm very curious how, what you can share to them, for them, that they may be able to take this and run a pilot of their own. So there are so many considerations here. This is not just, hey, tomorrow as of tomorrow, we're gonna turn off Fridays in the calendar. What, what goes into crafting the initial pilot program of running a four day work week within an organization?
Joel: It's a great question. There's so many different things that you to think about that you can think about. And one thing I would just say is interesting is you mentioned, you know, we did a pilot, we did a, we did a one month trial, we called it, and then we did a six month pilot.
Pilot just felt like a little bit more of a, maybe (laughs) elaborate term than a trial. The trial was really just like, let's do it. And so that, there's something there to that, which, and I was gonna say in a way we're still in the pilot, like shouldn't everything be a pilot all the time.
Because really we should be questioning, checking in you know, evolving everything, every part of, of the company and how we run all the time. And that's how we think about it. And everything is always evolving. For us, the concept of the trial was also, I think, powerful because it removes some of those those issues a little bit.
You know, maybe if you can say to your company, we're just doing a one month trial of the four day work week. I think you, there are certain things that you absolutely should think about in advance. But there's some things that, uh, maybe you can figure out along the way a little bit as well.
In a way doing a trial just means like, let's just jump in and figure it out. And so some of the key things I would say from my experience now, maybe with the benefit of hindsight is can, you know, looking, looking back things I maybe would've done from the beginning right away.
Think about customer service or, or at least think about different functions, different parts of the company, how do they need to approach it differently? That was something that from the beginning, we just knew we wanna provide great, uh, great customer service is something we've always prided ourselves on.
And, we've over invested in that function compared to other companies. So we wanna keep that going. It's not gonna work to just have everyone do the same four days. Luckily for us, we already had the concept of some people working a shift five days in advance.
Katelin: Right.
Joel: So we had some people work over the weekends and, and things like that. And, and that was a bit fluid. People could change things there. And so with the four day work week we have that as well where we kind of can be quite deliberate about, okay, as we are spreading the people we have in that team across, uh, seven days what's the right spread with everyone working four days.
So actually reducing the amount that everyone works. That's one key thing. The other one is, you know, across the rest of the company when we first did our trial we had every team pick their own day that makes sense for you. And it was really interesting because when I first did the four day work week in that first month I took Wednesdays off.
Now I take, now I take Fridays off. It's totally a different feeling. And I almost just would say like, as a company it's like, I, I kind of, I want everyone to have that feeling. And we really benefited as a company because a lot of people experienced that and we could come back and say, okay, what are the pros and cons of that.
Where we arrived at is that there's just so much value in aligning the day because it's just, it's just so challenging to also keep bearing in mind we are fully remote, very much like across the world. So that's, that's another piece-
... that I wanna bring in here as well in the four day work week if you can't think about the four day work week in isolation. You've gotta think about-
Katelin: Mm-hmm.
Joel: ... other aspects of the company, your, your remote, or the culture, the values, what are those values? The strategy, the business model, even, maybe even the customers you're serving, we serve-
Katelin: Yeah.
Joel: Small businesses. We have a very high volume of very low paying customers. That's very different than if you have, you know, maybe you're enterprise focused. You've got really big clients. If you lose one of them, you lose 5% of all your revenues, which is a very different situation, too.
Katelin: Right.
Joel: So I'm a firm believer that you've gotta bring all of this together. I almost think about it literally as like, if you have a table and you lay out your values, your strategy, your customer, saying all, all these pieces only like having all of that for a lot of decisions in the company, you can only really make the right decision when you lay all of that out. And, and you're thinking about all of it.
Katelin: Yes.
Joel: So that was important for us with the four day work week as well. We just get aligned as a, as a, as a company, especially as a, as a, as a leadership team on what's, what are your goals, like what's your intention with the four day work week? Are you, are you are you trying to get the same, level of output and results?
Are you, are you happy to reduce that slightly? And where we've kind of landed is that we're, we are happy to maybe reduce it slightly by like 5%, but not 20%. So that's also very interesting. So we are closer on the spectrum to, we wanna achieve a hundred percent.
And, and I would even say maybe we can go beyond a hundred percent when we really hit our stride, and this is really working for us. Because I've found myself and I believe that, and I've heard this from many people across the company as well that I almost just feel like it's a more optimal way of working.
I heard it best described as you have work and you have maybe leisure, or your family time, and then there's also this like other piece that most people don't have, but it's, I've heard it described as idleness and for me that's-
Just thinking. But the disconnect from the work helps the work, that fifth day that now you have off. There's all those different components that you wanna think about.
But I would say maybe how a bias was just, just giving it a go and really having a strong communication from your team on how it's going and, and iterate from there. And, but maybe also start with a belief of, you know, for me, it's, it's a belief that this really can be a more optimal way of working.
And one of, one of my favorite things about the four day work week is that it's just by definition of us having a four day work week or, you know, talking about it. We are already saying that it's kind of a belief that the five day work week can't be the best way to work.
So just the pure ability to question that is, I think one of the things that I love the most about the four day work week. I try to not get too rigid in the four day work week as well. I would suggest thinking about the four day work week less about the four days. You can end up rigid in the four days and, and more about just pushing yourself to like, think about the optimal way of working.
And also consider having more trust in, in your team and trusting in individual people, but also the collective, like individual teams within an organization. What I love the most about the four day work week I think is I almost kind of wanna maybe over time go beyond the four day work week and say it's like the, the, the, any day, any number of days, work week (laughs).
Katelin: There are so many things that you've just said that I think are incredibly helpful to our listeners from, you know, starting with why. What is our goal in this?
To have that trust and that creative open space to say, well, why do we do it this way? Question it. Uh, not, not in the spirit of, you know, turning over every apple cart just to be a contrarian, but to say, is this the most effective way that we could be doing work?
What are our perceived and maybe created boundaries that are in place that might be impeding us from getting to where we want to be faster.
Two, I, I think that something that you said that is very important and I, I love very much and, and I think that this is why Buffer has been able to, to play with so much of, of the cultural side of how we run an organization or how we build a sustainable business is by putting all of those components on the table that you talked about.
This is not just simply saying, we're talking about output and productivity today, full stop, or we're thinking about moving to a four day work week because we need to reduce our burn. And we put that on the table. This is about having a holistic conversation, a strategic conversation at the leadership level around what is not working for us right now.
What is our goal in changing a process? And are we considering all of the most important parts of our business to ensure that we get to the best next solution, and then to follow that up with, and we're gonna reevaluate. Because what got us here won't necessarily get us there.
We aren't going to get this pixel perfect on day one. Uh, this is a learning process, a growing process, and something that you said early in the conversation that I really wanna highlight for our listeners is we should be reevaluating all of our processes on a regular cadence, not just the four day work week or whatever, you know newfangled thing that we've decided to institute, whether that's performance management or building a, a new functionality within the revenue team.
So what I'm, what I'm hearing you say is so much of things that I love, uh, and, and more importantly, characteristics of very high, high output, very, uh, fluid organizations that are really building with people at the center, and more importantly, things that come from very successful companies on all measures of success.
So thank you for, for going so deep into that. Now I have a little bit more of a superficial question that I know a lot of people leaders have been asked as conversations around augmented work weeks come up within their own organizations, which is more than just like, okay, how, how can I get my CEO on board?
Or how can I get my founder on board? Or how might I present this to them in a way that would be more palatable? And for some companies that are a little bit more resistant or for some companies that are just in a different place in their business life cycle, the question of pay comes into the conversation.
The trade off here for you was maybe a small percentage of productivity or output, but I also love that you articulated, we get that back because people have the brain space.
So when they are on, they're able to be present instead of wasting away those hours and minutes in between meetings where you're literally just zoning out. And that's not, you're never gonna get into a flow state with that.
And so what, what I heard you say is you're kind of condensing and consolidating that, that productivity time and, and the other spaces allowing that to happen, but what about pay? So a lot of, uh, a lot of folks look on a spreadsheet and they say, okay, so we were working five days. Now we're gonna work for four days. That's 80%, therefore 80% pay.
Joel: Yeah, I think the other thing people say, or, you know, people talk about a four day work week is four tens. So the idea of, you know, four days, uh, 10 hours a day, so you are just getting back to the 40 hours work week. The thing I would say is that now you're talking about time and you're equating pay to time, and I don't think that's the right thing to do.
And it's not how we think about the four day work week. So for us, it, it doesn't make sense to reconsider pay because then you are starting to say that, you know, you were paid for those five days, you really should be getting paid for your output, for the results and for how well we're all, you know, coming together and the success we're having together.
And so that's really how I, how I think about it. It's interesting to connect this to remote working as well, because we've been working remotely for a long time before the four day work week. And I think for us, the only way that remote work works and now we kind of translate this to four day work week as well is the idea of like, you give flexibility to get flexibility.
So remote work would always just provide a significant amount of flexibility for people. You could, you know, be... you can be working where you want to be working, you could move or travel and keep working. I think it's, it's an incredible thing. But to make it work, you might be, your team might be spread across multiple time zones.
So you, you need to communicate with each other. That's where, you know, Buffer's also a high trust culture. It's also a high commitment culture. It's these pieces again, kind of everything that's on the table, bring it together. For us, the way that both remote work and four day work week, like the only way those work really well is you bring these other pieces in of the high trust, the flexibility.
And, and that's where I, I... is we don't have a four day work week where like no one ever works on a Friday. We, but it's more of a belief that we actually can have incredible results in less time, but we need to be all, uh, pretty flexible if we're gonna come together and we're spread across the world.
And we're all striving for that, for that, like this is the most optimal way of working. I will say that, I've, I've found and, and heard this across the team is that with the four day work week, it just feels very different because even in the choice to do it, we're choosing to be quite mindful about our level of focus and flow.
You mentioned flow. I think that's really powerful, is it... so for me, I have this feeling of like four days, and, and I say this as, you know, two years on at this point, I was, I wondered, is this like, is there a honeymoon period? But two years on-
Katelin: Right.
Joel: The four day work week, it feels like most of the time you can, this idea of like, I've left it all in the field. I've done 110%. You kind of, you feel like you can do 110% for, for four days. And then you can kind of be like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm like, oh, I need the rest. I'm gonna take the rest.
With three days as well as a weekend, I think it's generally more powerful if you have three straight days in a row. As I mentioned, I've tried the split where it was Wednesday and then the regular weekend. But there's something really powerful about that as well.
Uh, obviously lots of different personal family type situations for me and I've heard this a lot amongst the parents in the team. You kind of get one day for errands and, and things which often get, had, had to fit in, in the two days.
And you end up and you really end up with this like Sunday feeling of like, ugh, like really could have done with another day. But with three days you kind of have room, you have time for everything. And so that also is just, and you probably have a bit of room to be like having things percolating about the work that you're currently doing as well.
And then you come back on Monday and you're so fresh and clear minded, and you're like excited to get into that work. And you, and you, and you jump back in and do you know, the 110% again the next week. So I think it's a really powerful thing.
Katelin: I love closing with that thought because it's, you've made a very compelling case, uh, to be honest (laughs)-
Joel: (laughs).
Katelin: By being so, so open with your sharing and your learning. I love the idea of cutting off the learning curve for other folks. Sometimes you need to learn some lessons on your own. Other times you, you can learn from others and, and adopt them.
Together as a collective, we can learn and grow, uh, faster, right, to get to this place where we do feel like balanced, integrated, present humans, uh, which is a big part of, of why we should be considering augmenting our work weeks.
All right, Joel, are you ready to jump into rapid fire?
Joel: Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready. (laughs).
Katelin: So, first question. Looking at your desk in front of you, what item sparks joy for you and why?
Joel: (laughs) There's a piece of pottery, ceramic, and it says I like you a lot (laughs). And it's just kind of a funny in-joke with my wife.
She did a pottery class early in the pandemic, and she made this for me. But it's like, it didn't like glaze well or whatever. It's just like a piece of random pottery.
Katelin: (laughs).
Joel: But it really brings me a lot of joy. I keep it on my desk and yeah, (laughs).
Katelin: (laughs) I like her already. This is amazing. Okay. Second question. Buffer has been at the forefront of so many progressive people and culture policies. What is percolating for you now? What's bubbling? What's next?
Joel: What's next? I mean, transparency is still really, really top of my mind because we've been remote for so long. That movement is now, you know, it's, it's so mainstream. I still believe that companies can and should be significantly more transparent, transparent pay.
And we're still in a very much a tiny minority having our salaries published publicly and having, or even having internal transparency around pay. So yeah, that's probably the one that I'm, I'm thinking it's, it's next for the world. It's also next for us because there's so much more we can do.It gets harder over time, the bigger you get.
Katelin: Yeah. I'm so glad that you're thinking about that. Last question. When was the last time you were deeply proud of something you've accomplished?
Joel: That's a very good question. I would say, I mean, that's a tough one. The word deeply has got me stumped 'cause like deeply you've gotta be really proud of this, but I would, I mean, I would say I think since the start of the year I've just been very proud of how we've operated as a company.
We've really increased our focus on a connection across the team. We've kind of hit pause a bit as a team and said let's really work together to make things happen. We're committed to strengthening our culture and the values again.
It's a bit of a general answer, but I think that's the one that for me I would just throw in a personal one that I'm very proud of, which is something I've been working with my coach on for quite a while is I don't... There's a concept of like the upper limit problem or the thing that you find really challenging that could be holding you back as an individual from hitting that next level.
So conflict has always been the thing for me, like I'm, you know, conflict averse as a, as a person or have been generally. But I've put a ton of work into that in the last couple of years.
And really found a new relationship with conflict of how, uh, powerful and healthy it can be. And, I came across something recently that said uncomfortable, uh, comfortable conversations equals uncomfortable relations.
Uncom- uncomfortable conversations equals comfortable relations. And I would just say I've, I've leaned into the discomfort and the conflict quite many times in the last couple of years. And it has I feel in a much better, more authentic place as a, as a human now.
Katelin: Oh, congratulations. As a fellow conflict averse human I, I keep my Brené Brown mantra right there, you know, clear is kind.
Joel: Yeah.
Katelin: So (laughs) Joel, Joel I will end our conversation simply by saying thank you so very much for not only spending the time with us and sharing your wisdom, but really thank you so very much for the work that you're doing out there, uh, on behalf of all of us who are our goal aligned and values aligned and trying to create a slightly better world of work for everybody. So thank you for all that you do. And please, please keep leading authentically.
Joel: Thanks so much, Katelin. And same to you, please keep having these conversations with so many different inspiring leaders that are giving me new ideas of, oh, I should do that now. And, and I think so, I think it's just very, uh, powerful, very valuable work.
Katelin: Thank you.
